Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers • Hacker News Board

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#271

Post by vkou » Tue, Jun 26, 2018, 5:59 PM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #154

vishaltelangre wrote: post #105

Instead, government could've imposed ban on the consumer products which are wrapped using plastic material. Almost 50% plastic come directly from such consumer products sold by all FMCG companies. Such plastic material which is used as a wrapper (e.g. mineral bottles, wrappers of chocolates, biscuits, wafers, tobacco, etc.) is often useless and people tend to throw it right away. I agree that "we", the people need to…

>Instead, government could've imposed ban on the consumer products which are wrapped using plastic material. Almost 50% plastic come directly from such consumer products sold by all FMCG companies. Such plastic material which is used as a wrapper (e.g. mineral bottles, wrappers of chocolates, biscuits, wafers, tobacco, etc.) is often useless and people tend to throw it right away. Broadly speaking, that would be a te…

This is all well and good, in a country with clear garbage pickup schedules, where people put their plastic in their garbage bin, and a garbage truck comes to take it away into a landfill.

Unfortunately, in countries with plastic pollution problems, there are a large number of externalities that your essay did not account for. Or, more specifically one large externality - when people are done using it, they throw it out.

Until the garbage disposal situation gets resolved, it makes perfect sense to demonize and ban plastic. If you want plastic back, maybe this is an incentive to get garbage disposal fixed.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#272

Post by dahart » Tue, Jun 26, 2018, 6:00 PM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #154

vishaltelangre wrote: post #105

Instead, government could've imposed ban on the consumer products which are wrapped using plastic material. Almost 50% plastic come directly from such consumer products sold by all FMCG companies. Such plastic material which is used as a wrapper (e.g. mineral bottles, wrappers of chocolates, biscuits, wafers, tobacco, etc.) is often useless and people tend to throw it right away. I agree that "we", the people need to…

>Instead, government could've imposed ban on the consumer products which are wrapped using plastic material. Almost 50% plastic come directly from such consumer products sold by all FMCG companies. Such plastic material which is used as a wrapper (e.g. mineral bottles, wrappers of chocolates, biscuits, wafers, tobacco, etc.) is often useless and people tend to throw it right away. Broadly speaking, that would be a te…

> the environmental impact of wasted cucumbers is far greater than the environmental impact of a gram or two of polyethylene wrapping.

You're comparing the transportation costs of cucumbers to the production costs of plastic wrap, this conflated comparison seems disingenuous to me.

It also needs to be qualified that whatever truth is in that statement only applies to cucumbers that went to the grocery store and weren't sold. It's not true for cucumbers that dry up in the field where they grew.

Fixing that problem has nothing to do with cucumbers and everything to do with making sales and transportation more efficient.

> The plastic wrapper produced ~10g of CO2 and required ~100ml of water to produce; the steak produced ~7kg of CO2 and required ~4,000 litres of water to produce.

I'm curious what water usage has to do with this? Water used to raise a cow gets to be used again, right?

> As long as it is disposed of responsibly, a whole trash bag full of plastic packaging has a negligible environmental impact compared to a single portion of beef.

Are you claiming that every kg of beef production releases more c02 than every kg of plastic production? How do you figure that?

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#273

Post by jdietrich » Tue, Jun 26, 2018, 6:00 PM UTC

ozborn wrote: post #239

jdietrich wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Producing a cucumber results in CO2 emissions of about 1kg (3.3kg CO2 per kg product, avg weight ~300g). Shrink-wrapping a cucumber increases the average shelf life from 9 days to 15 days in refrigerated conditions and from 2 days to 5 days in ambient conditions. Producing a kilogram of polyethylene film packaging emits about 2.7kg of CO2. The wrapping on an average-sized cucumber weighs about 2g, producing an additi…

While carbon emissions are an important consideration, they are not only impact of plastic. Plastics often end up in the ocean where they cause havoc with not just marine marine life, but also people. It is not just about viewing unsightly plastic, but also ingestion of plastic and chemicals associated with plastic such as phthalates and endocrine disruptors. While spoilage is in issue, so are the various health prob…

As brutal as it might seem, plastic pollution is not a high priority. It makes for some shocking and upsetting photos, but it's not a fundamental threat to the marine ecosystem. The sources of marine plastic pollution are non-obvious and can be mostly mitigated through better management of waste rather than elimination at source.

Ocean acidification due to rising CO2 levels is a cataclysmic threat to the marine ecosystem. A relatively small decrease in pH could lead to the extinction of many key invertebrate species and the complete collapse of some habitats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification

The health risks posed by plastics are marginal at worst. There are some legitimate concerns about certain persistent organic pollutants, but plastics are not the primary sources of exposure to these compounds and their use is largely under effective control.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#274

Post by snambi » Tue, Jun 26, 2018, 6:05 PM UTC

vishaltelangre wrote: post #105

Instead, government could've imposed ban on the consumer products which are wrapped using plastic material. Almost 50% plastic come directly from such consumer products sold by all FMCG companies. Such plastic material which is used as a wrapper (e.g. mineral bottles, wrappers of chocolates, biscuits, wafers, tobacco, etc.) is often useless and people tend to throw it right away. I agree that "we", the people need to…

Probably the next move is banning all FMCG. We got used to the garbage such as soap, tooth paste etc. But I think we will be fine if they are not available.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#275

Post by inapis » Tue, Jun 26, 2018, 6:16 PM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #154

vishaltelangre wrote: post #105

Instead, government could've imposed ban on the consumer products which are wrapped using plastic material. Almost 50% plastic come directly from such consumer products sold by all FMCG companies. Such plastic material which is used as a wrapper (e.g. mineral bottles, wrappers of chocolates, biscuits, wafers, tobacco, etc.) is often useless and people tend to throw it right away. I agree that "we", the people need to…

>Instead, government could've imposed ban on the consumer products which are wrapped using plastic material. Almost 50% plastic come directly from such consumer products sold by all FMCG companies. Such plastic material which is used as a wrapper (e.g. mineral bottles, wrappers of chocolates, biscuits, wafers, tobacco, etc.) is often useless and people tend to throw it right away. Broadly speaking, that would be a te…

I see two problems with your argument.

One - you are giving humans and plastic a lot of benefit of doubt. Time and again, it is demonstrated that human convenience trumps environmental concerns. So governments can have state-of-the-art recycling facilities but getting people to co-operate is an uphill challenge.

Second - the nature of plastic itself. You are basing sustainability on cost to environment in production but not taking into account the cost of disposal. The world is rapidly moving towards sustainable sources of energy and thus energy consumption is becoming less of a concern. Glass, cucumbers etc can be sustainably disposed off or recycled but plastic can't be - at least not all kinds currently in use/production.

And the cucumber example is a little disingenuous. A lot of the cucumber product is fast moving and fly off the shelves rapidly. Number of cucumbers being actually consumed is >>> than the number of cucumbers being spoiled. But the environment has to deal with sum total of all the plastic used to wrap the cucumber - even those which were consumed rapidly and would have not been spoiled at all.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#276

Post by briandear » Tue, Jun 26, 2018, 6:18 PM UTC

ryanianian wrote: post #251

gianpaj wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Ukraine, there is a big French supermarket chain called Ашан (auchan.ua), in which people can buy liquid cleaning products by the volume. For example, if you need a litre for dishwashing cleaning soap, you can go and pull a lever and fill an appropriate size plastic bottle. It's their own brand and it's very cheap. I'm not 100% sure if you can bring and use any plastic bottle, or you have first get it from them. T…

That's excellent. It's surprising even high-end specialty stores in the US (e.g. Whole Foods) don't do more of this.

It’s suprising that even Auchan in France doesn’t do this.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#277

Post by briandear » Tue, Jun 26, 2018, 6:21 PM UTC

efficax wrote: post #167

jdietrich wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Instead, government could've imposed ban on the consumer products which are wrapped using plastic material. Almost 50% plastic come directly from such consumer products sold by all FMCG companies. Such plastic material which is used as a wrapper (e.g. mineral bottles, wrappers of chocolates, biscuits, wafers, tobacco, etc.) is often useless and people tend to throw it right away. Broadly speaking, that would be a te…

CO2 is only one environmental impact factor. Plastic waste is devastating for our oceans. Reducing plastic usage and CO2 should be twin goals.

Why not figure out why plastic ends up in the ocean and solve that problem? Motor oil in the oceans is far more dangerous than plastics, but no sane person is advocating banning lubricants. Instead laws and practices were developed to ensure used oil doesn’t end up in storm drains and water supplies.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#278

Post by jdietrich » Tue, Jun 26, 2018, 6:28 PM UTC

dd36 wrote: post #254

riantogo wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on jdietrich's input, it is then a waste processing problem and not a plastic problem. Tackling the symptom in this case seems net more harmful.

By his logic, we should plastic wrap every vegetable and fruit. That is nonsensical. Humans don't dispose of things properly. That's a fact. Creating more plastic waste will create more plastic pollution. It's far easier to not create the waste in the first place. And there are ways to reduce CO2 that don't involve creating exponentially more plastic waste. Again, producers don't plastic wrap cucumbers to save CO2. T…

>By his logic, we should plastic wrap every vegetable and fruit. That is nonsensical.

Not at all. Cucumbers have a relatively short shelf-life due to a high water content and a permeable skin, so wrapping them makes economic and environmental sense. Apples and citrus fruits don't need plastic packaging, but their shelf life is considerably enhanced by the application of a protective wax coating. Some products like loose salad leaves need modified atmosphere packaging to achieve a satisfactory shelf life, while delicate soft fruits require a protective packaging system that could involve a variety of wood- or plastic-based products. I'm indifferent to points of principle, I care about choosing the most sustainable tool for any given task.

The critical environmental issue in our fruit and vegetable supply is the needlessly high use of air freight to maintain supplies of out-of-season produce. A single package of asparagus or green beans might produce emissions of >10kg CO2e, simply because of their transport mode. If you want to reduce the sustainability of your produce consumption, that one issue overwhelms pretty much everything else.

>It's far easier to not create the waste in the first place. And there are ways to reduce CO2 that don't involve creating exponentially more plastic waste.

You're trading one kind of waste for another. Plastic packaging is wasteful in one sense because it is disposable, but it reduces a potentially far greater waste by protecting products during transportation and storage. Plastic isn't always the most sustainable packaging material, but it often is. That decision needs to be made based on hard facts, not the presumption that plastic is evil.

>Charge producers for the waste their products create. That will incentivize less waste. Charge them for the CO2 they emit. That will incentivize a reduction in CO2.

I'm fully in favour of both, as long as those charges represent the actual economic impacts of mitigating those issues.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#279

Post by briandear » Tue, Jun 26, 2018, 6:30 PM UTC

titzer wrote: post #171

jdietrich wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Instead, government could've imposed ban on the consumer products which are wrapped using plastic material. Almost 50% plastic come directly from such consumer products sold by all FMCG companies. Such plastic material which is used as a wrapper (e.g. mineral bottles, wrappers of chocolates, biscuits, wafers, tobacco, etc.) is often useless and people tend to throw it right away. Broadly speaking, that would be a te…

The environment is more than a single dimension. I'm not going to dispute your stats on individual items here--as far as CO2 goes, maybe you're right. But the oceans and landfills are filling up with non-biodegradable plastic garbage that is weakening ecosystems all over the planet. We need to get our waste pipeline under control at all stages, and plastic packaging is garbage for a long term plan. As evidence I cite…

Landfill waste doesn’t generally end up in the oceans. Landfills aren’t the problem, it’s the bad management of waste, typically by countries that care more about basic survival than the effect of their trash on a whale. A villager in rural China doesn’t typically have the luxury of caring as much as some Instagraming Brooklynite. Creating better processes around waste management is going to have a much larger and predicatable effect than outright bans — which can have unintended consequences that the “smart people” fail to predict. Blanket bans on DDT are a good example, sounded good, until millions more people died of malaria. (I am not suggesting we continue or end the DDT ban, it’s just an example of the effect of a policy that was driven by emotion rather than a rigorous scientific process.) It’s possible that banning plastic could have unforeseen consequences that haven’t been considered by the simpletons that typically are charged with making government policy.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#280

Post by hw » Tue, Jun 26, 2018, 6:52 PM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #221

nafey wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a net win, because the environmental impact of wasted cucumbers is far greater than the environmental impact of a gram or two of polyethylene wrapping. Will need citation for that.

Producing a cucumber results in CO2 emissions of about 1kg (3.3kg CO2 per kg product, avg weight ~300g). Shrink-wrapping a cucumber increases the average shelf life from 9 days to 15 days in refrigerated conditions and from 2 days to 5 days in ambient conditions. Producing a kilogram of polyethylene film packaging emits about 2.7kg of CO2. The wrapping on an average-sized cucumber weighs about 2g, producing an additi…

It's unknown if wrapping cucumbers would reduce the % that goes to waste. It's also likely that the 12% of cucumbers that go to waste also include those that are shrink wrapped. Extending shelf life of produce won't matter too much, if customers are looking at the date which the produce was shrink wrapped and buying the 'freshest' wrapped cucumber.

The problem here is that if cucumbers are going to waste, retailers are not managing their inventory well. That means way too many cucumbers are being produced and sold to retailers. This is all in the name of profit, at the expense of the environment.

CO2 emissions are not the only environmental issue. While you may downplay the effect plastics have on the environment compared to CO2, it's still a problem nonetheless.