A world of free movement would be $78T richer • Hacker News Board

Re: A world of free movement would be $78T richer

#351

Post by tom_mellior » Sun, Jun 24, 2018, 1:10 PM UTC

hueving wrote: post #278

lord_ring_11 wrote: post #272

I am ok with selective immigration. But open borders is truly crazy idea at this point. If we open borders like suggested next thing we know will be - developed countries becoming like garbage dumps we see in other countries. There is a reason why some countires fall into downward spirals. If u get its people en mass without filters, you get that mentality too. Why dont we experiment in smaller scale with liberal com…

You can have open borders or a good social safety net. Pick one.

Explain please? Immigrants pay into safety nets just like anyone else who pays into them.

Re: A world of free movement would be $78T richer

#352

Post by qaq » Sun, Jun 24, 2018, 1:36 PM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #350

qaq wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK lets compare the process for Ireland, Poland, Germany to US. Especially time to PR.

You can get a J1 visa in 2 weeks which gives you 18months. You can get an EB1 (greencard in 3 months if you qualify. You can get an O/L/E visa in a few months same thing with H1b. And you have way more ways to get in.

I think you are ignoring the time to PR part. EB1 current processing time is 8 month (and you have to have 1 mil) the requirements are very strict You can buy a 500K property in Cyprus/Portugal etc and become resident (latvia 250K)without any requirement to run a business or hire people etc. Cmon H1B is done once a year and there is lottery with 50% chance of wining (spouse can not work) E visa are business visas and only for people from treaty trader countries plus they do not convert to PR L visas you have to work for the subsidiary for 1 year there is a limit on L visa length In Czcech Republic, Estonia etc. you need 10K to get residency through business and there are no requirements to hire people etc.

Re: A world of free movement would be $78T richer

#353

Post by qaq » Sun, Jun 24, 2018, 1:38 PM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #349

qaq wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How having 11 million illegal immigrants is being open :)? In Ireland it would take 2 month to get work visa that becomes PR after 2 years. L1 is only for transfers anyone that can qualify for US O visa are welcome anywhere in the world.

How many illegal immigrants are working in the EU. You don't just get a work visa. Believe me I have dealt with it as the owner of a company in Denmark hiring people from outside the EU.

In EU fewer because they actually let people settle. There was about 1 mil iligal workers from Ukraine alone but now poland is handing out visas even to unskilled workers so people mostly enter EU legally

Re: A world of free movement would be $78T richer

#354

Post by ThomPete » Sun, Jun 24, 2018, 2:58 PM UTC

qaq wrote: post #352

ThomPete wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can get a J1 visa in 2 weeks which gives you 18months. You can get an EB1 (greencard in 3 months if you qualify. You can get an O/L/E visa in a few months same thing with H1b. And you have way more ways to get in.

I think you are ignoring the time to PR part. EB1 current processing time is 8 month (and you have to have 1 mil) the requirements are very strict You can buy a 500K property in Cyprus/Portugal etc and become resident (latvia 250K)without any requirement to run a business or hire people etc. Cmon H1B is done once a year and there is lottery with 50% chance of wining (spouse can not work) E visa are business visas and…

I am not ignoring anything. I have tried both hiring into the EU and from EU to the US.

Also you need to make the proper comparison with EU not just cherry pick a few countries. I can cherry pick countries to where it's very hard (try Denmark for instance).

My claim was EU vs US again 11 million illegal immigrants living here and for a large part contributing to the economy that alone would never happen in the EU.

And you don't need 1Million for a EB1. It's a merrit based greencard (just like O1 visa is)

Re: A world of free movement would be $78T richer

#355

Post by ThomPete » Sun, Jun 24, 2018, 3:06 PM UTC

qaq wrote: post #353

ThomPete wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many illegal immigrants are working in the EU. You don't just get a work visa. Believe me I have dealt with it as the owner of a company in Denmark hiring people from outside the EU.

In EU fewer because they actually let people settle. There was about 1 mil iligal workers from Ukraine alone but now poland is handing out visas even to unskilled workers so people mostly enter EU legally

You mean by keeping them in Turkey or turning them away in the waters so they drown?

I think you got the wrong information here.

Re: A world of free movement would be $78T richer

#356

Post by teaspoons » Sun, Jun 24, 2018, 3:53 PM UTC

rdlecler1 wrote: post #346

teaspoons wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The world wouldn’t be $78T richer, it would be $78T poorer because it would lead to widespread civil war" Nope, 90% of people would stay where they are. Most people don't like migrating: to uproot yourself and your family from the land, culture and language you love is a big deal and people only do it when the have no other choice.

Okay and what about the migration of the other 700m people with most frequent destinations being US and Europe from the bottom quartile of countries by GDP? Mexico has 125m people and the US has around 12m illegal aliens. Let’s generously assume that only half are from Mexico, that’s 5% of the population that was willing to take the risk to live in the US illegally. Now create an open boarder? You’d have 10% of Mexic…

the USA was founded by migrants

Re: A world of free movement would be $78T richer

#357

Post by qaq » Sun, Jun 24, 2018, 4:03 PM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #354

qaq wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are ignoring the time to PR part. EB1 current processing time is 8 month (and you have to have 1 mil) the requirements are very strict You can buy a 500K property in Cyprus/Portugal etc and become resident (latvia 250K)without any requirement to run a business or hire people etc. Cmon H1B is done once a year and there is lottery with 50% chance of wining (spouse can not work) E visa are business visas and…

I am not ignoring anything. I have tried both hiring into the EU and from EU to the US. Also you need to make the proper comparison with EU not just cherry pick a few countries. I can cherry pick countries to where it's very hard (try Denmark for instance). My claim was EU vs US again 11 million illegal immigrants living here and for a large part contributing to the economy that alone would never happen in the EU. An…

A resident of any Shengen country can work and live in any other Shengen country that's why I cherry picked. Sorry confused EB1 with EB5.

Re: A world of free movement would be $78T richer

#358

Post by qaq » Sun, Jun 24, 2018, 4:06 PM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #355

qaq wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In EU fewer because they actually let people settle. There was about 1 mil iligal workers from Ukraine alone but now poland is handing out visas even to unskilled workers so people mostly enter EU legally

You mean by keeping them in Turkey or turning them away in the waters so they drown? I think you got the wrong information here.

You gonna pretend US border patrol is welcoming mexicans in US? That whole 0 tolerance thing is escaping your attention?

Re: A world of free movement would be $78T richer

#359

Post by patrickg_zill » Sun, Jun 24, 2018, 4:20 PM UTC

monort wrote: post #345

patrickg_zill wrote: post #2

Utterly ridiculous rubbish. The reason why Mexican immigrants make more money as mentioned in the article in the US would be erased under open borders. It would be a race to the bottom, globally.

Race to the bottom is what makes a progress. Would you prefer to work a month to be able to afford a shirt, like it was just a few centuries before? Or do you prefer when "race to the bottom" made the cost of the same shirt into a few hours of work?

That's automation, not immigration.

Re: A world of free movement would be $78T richer

#360

Post by krferriter » Sun, Jun 24, 2018, 4:44 PM UTC

tom_mellior wrote: post #351

hueving wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can have open borders or a good social safety net. Pick one.

Explain please? Immigrants pay into safety nets just like anyone else who pays into them.

If 10 million poor people with no employable skillsets move into Europe, they would be withdrawing vastly more from the tax pool than they would be putting into it. People who do not contribute to production would just move wherever the local government will give residents the most resources.