Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013) • Hacker News Board

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#141

Post by jimnotgym » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 4:45 PM UTC

bequanna wrote: post #115

jimnotgym wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Poverty can also be a trap because... Actually there is contrary evidence. A study was carried out on the streets of London where they gave larger sums of cash no-strings-attached, and it showed that people in general took that money and used it to set themselves up in a job. One started a gardening business, for instance [0]. The idea that work is what people need is very Victorian, and reminds me of the tread-mil…

> If I can find a single days work I lose all of it. I can't speak to social programs outside of the US, but here, most of our programs (SNAP, Section-8, unemployment benefits) are on a sliding scale. This allows for benefits to somewhat decrease as earnings increase. That said, I anecdotally have noticed a couple things: 1. Many low income people actually aspire to be accepted into these programs, especially Section…

In the UK they are on a stepped scale. So you hit a trigger point a lose a lot, especially housing benefit. In some benefits you have to be out of work so-long to get them again, so a day's work can lose you a whole weeks benefit.

I was out of work for a few weeks during the recession. It took a month to receive any housing benefit and two weeks to get unemployment by which time I was behind on my rent. I took the first job I could find at a little over minimum (with best intentions) and applied for working tax credits which were sorted a few weeks later. The tax credits were back-dated to when I started earning so now I had 'earned too much' in a prior period to have claimed housing benefit and I got a bill to pay it all back. Then because I had claimed a benefit I was not entitled to I was pulled in for an interview under-caution for benefit fraud! I was read my rights and they put two tapes in a machine just like in the films and started questioning me. We got to the end of the first tape before they accepted that their chronology was rather unfair.

So yes UK benefits are a severe poverty trap

I have a relation who was manager of a number of low waged workers and none of them would take extra hours for fear of upsetting their tax credits. Something about 16 hours a week, but I don't know whether it was a time or a wage limit. Imagine a society incentivising people not to work?

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#142

Post by jimnotgym » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 4:53 PM UTC

tsenkov wrote: post #119

jimnotgym wrote: post #92

In his influential book on Universal Income, "Utopia for Realists", Rutger Bregman discusses this at some length (referencing the same study). I have to say I have experienced it myself, and not having enough money for the essentials is so all consuming that you cannot possibly perform well at work and make good life decisions. I have succeeded at work under these conditions, but I gave up everything else, hobbies, l…

I am sure you have given your kids a great example of succeeding in a tough situation and taking care of a family. Edit: Don't know why was my post down-voted. My intention was only to give emotional support to a fellow human being that goes/went through pain that I personally have struggled with and know all too well.

Thank you for that, it was a nice comment and I up-voted. It is interesting, my eldest always seems to think we are poor now, since she was old enough to have remembered the worst of it. I earn above average wage now, but she is scarred by it. My reaction is not to victim-blame other poor people who didn't get through, but to campaign for a system which helps people succeed. And that system is not, categorically, anything with strings attached or any 'work-makes-you-free' Victorian BS. Working out of poverty is miserable and I don't feel a lot better for having done it, but I do bear plenty of scars.

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#143

Post by notacoward » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 5:13 PM UTC

notabee wrote: post #139

cdoxsey wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think providing assistance with no strings attached is a good thing. I just don't think its sufficient and a more holistic approach would work better. I also don't think this kind of program can scale though. It needs to be local and involve the community, not a faceless bureaucracy. To your point, you may feel indebted to a friend who helps you with some cash. But no one feels indebted to the federal government.

To add to your point, I think there would be ways to give more granular, specific assistance instead of just throwing money at people. Buying things like housing, food, and healthcare at scale makes sense for a government to do, as it should be cheaper. (The level of corruption in the current U.S. government might negate that, but it doesn't have to be that way. It's society's responsibility to hold its government to…

> just throwing money at people

That's an overly emotive phrase that misrepresents what anyone has suggested.

> Maybe a small amount of direct money, but just to cover gaps in essentials. You also have to pay a significant amount for auditors and social workers to make sure the system is working sanely.

In other words, do exactly what the research shows does not work as well. Attach strings, maintain tight control, etc. Never grant agency to poor people. Pretend that they can't make wise decisions, unlike people who might inherit millions and of course we can trust them to act wisely because meritocracy.

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#144

Post by adynatos » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 5:33 PM UTC

hn0 wrote: post #131

adynatos wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

only if you subscribe to the notion that current social democracies are not socialist. "opposition to enabling people to live off the back of others"? strange, the left implements that everywhere already. and of course marx would be opposed, because his belief in LTV is an entirely different kind of wrong.

"opposition to enabling people to live off the back of others" almost sounds like that other -ism...

interventionism? communism? cronyism? statism? what do you mean?

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#145

Post by amelius » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 5:37 PM UTC

simonsarris wrote: post #127

"Poverty decreases IQ" studies are contentious and not well replicated. Why does it keep getting repeated in 2018? This Princeton article is from 2013 and talking about the paper, "Poverty Impedes Cognitive Function". Here is some December 2013 commentary doubting the paper: > Mani et al. (Research Articles, 30 August, p. 976) presented laboratory experiments that aimed to show that poverty-related worries impede cog…

> "Poverty decreases IQ" studies are contentious and not well replicated. Why does it keep getting repeated in 2018?

The reason might be common sense. The evolution of the human brain was possible for a great part because humans started to cook their food. Poverty reduces nutritional intake. Therefore the studies make sense. This means that (imho) somebody should prove the opposite to make this completely logical meme go away.

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#146

Post by crdoconnor » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 6:01 PM UTC

dd36 wrote: post #134

crdoconnor wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deficits are not an intergenerational tax. They are funded by issuing bonds, which are assets that will get passed down through the generations. There is not really any such thing as an inter-generational wealth transfer. There are transfers from poor to rich that the rich are (successfully) scapegoating old people for.

The bonds/loans are spent and have to be repaid with future revenue. A bond is a liability to the issuer not an asset. There is a transfer and it’s current rich from future rich.

>A bond is a liability to the issuer not an asset.

From the issuer's (government) perspective it is a liability. From society's perspective it is both a liability and an asset.

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#147

Post by bequanna » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 6:09 PM UTC

zappo2938 wrote: post #122

bequanna wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I can find a single days work I lose all of it. I can't speak to social programs outside of the US, but here, most of our programs (SNAP, Section-8, unemployment benefits) are on a sliding scale. This allows for benefits to somewhat decrease as earnings increase. That said, I anecdotally have noticed a couple things: 1. Many low income people actually aspire to be accepted into these programs, especially Section…

I can recall two students I knew at Stuyvesant who lived in a couple of the more violent public housing projects who went on to college. My anecdote proves your anecdote wrong. That said I will need for you to come with studies and real data that show you are not wrong. This is because what you are saying has very real world implications that will hurt children who do need sometime up to 18 years of housing assistanc…

> This is because what you are saying has very real world implications that will hurt children who do need sometime up to 18 years of housing assistance so that they can also go on to college and become productive members of society.

What exactly am I saying?

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#148

Post by savanaly » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 6:14 PM UTC

amelius wrote: post #145

simonsarris wrote: post #127

"Poverty decreases IQ" studies are contentious and not well replicated. Why does it keep getting repeated in 2018? This Princeton article is from 2013 and talking about the paper, "Poverty Impedes Cognitive Function". Here is some December 2013 commentary doubting the paper: > Mani et al. (Research Articles, 30 August, p. 976) presented laboratory experiments that aimed to show that poverty-related worries impede cog…

> "Poverty decreases IQ" studies are contentious and not well replicated. Why does it keep getting repeated in 2018? The reason might be common sense. The evolution of the human brain was possible for a great part because humans started to cook their food. Poverty reduces nutritional intake. Therefore the studies make sense. This means that (imho) somebody should prove the opposite to make this completely logical mem…

That's not how science works.

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#149

Post by dionidium » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 6:17 PM UTC

amelius wrote: post #145

simonsarris wrote: post #127

"Poverty decreases IQ" studies are contentious and not well replicated. Why does it keep getting repeated in 2018? This Princeton article is from 2013 and talking about the paper, "Poverty Impedes Cognitive Function". Here is some December 2013 commentary doubting the paper: > Mani et al. (Research Articles, 30 August, p. 976) presented laboratory experiments that aimed to show that poverty-related worries impede cog…

> "Poverty decreases IQ" studies are contentious and not well replicated. Why does it keep getting repeated in 2018? The reason might be common sense. The evolution of the human brain was possible for a great part because humans started to cook their food. Poverty reduces nutritional intake. Therefore the studies make sense. This means that (imho) somebody should prove the opposite to make this completely logical mem…

This isn't just wrong, it's fundamentally wrong. The burden is on those who wish to forward a positive claim. The meme won't go away because it nicely confirms a popular and comforting narrative.

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#150

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 6:22 PM UTC

Aren’t these “Poverty decreases IQ” studies providing a rational reason to discriminate against poor people in society. There is already discrimination against poor people due to their environment, why provide fodder to discriminate against their intellect?