Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013) • Hacker News Board

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#131

Post by hn0 » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 3:23 PM UTC

adynatos wrote: post #118

vidarh wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI is not a socialist invention. In fact you'll find a lot of opposition to it on the left for various reasons, ranging from opposition to enabling people to live off the back of others, to a belief it's a thin wedge to reduce welfare. The socialist slogan is - as Marx pointedly remarked in "Critique of the Gotha Program" -, not an argument for equality but "from each according to ability , to each according to thei…

only if you subscribe to the notion that current social democracies are not socialist. "opposition to enabling people to live off the back of others"? strange, the left implements that everywhere already. and of course marx would be opposed, because his belief in LTV is an entirely different kind of wrong.

"opposition to enabling people to live off the back of others" almost sounds like that other -ism...

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#132

Post by cdoxsey » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 3:46 PM UTC

notacoward wrote: post #114

cdoxsey wrote: post #65

Poverty can also be a trap because the simple solution (just giving someone money to alleviate poverty) isn't the same as earned success. When you feel like you've earned money through hard work and you feel like you're a contributor and needed and respected by your peers it brings a significant amount of satisfaction and happiness in life, which in turn drives you to be more productive and alters the way you think a…

> it's important to remember the more complex human psychology Yes, and it's important to remember that it is complex, not reduce it to simplistic formulae. Your theory is pretty much exactly contrary to empirical evidence. When you've earned money through hard work it can create a reward cycle, but it can also create a feeling of completion, of having done enough and having the right to stop. When you haven't earned…

I think providing assistance with no strings attached is a good thing. I just don't think its sufficient and a more holistic approach would work better.

I also don't think this kind of program can scale though. It needs to be local and involve the community, not a faceless bureaucracy. To your point, you may feel indebted to a friend who helps you with some cash. But no one feels indebted to the federal government.

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#133

Post by dd36 » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 3:54 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #67

dd36 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And debt is an intergenerational tax that fully offsets your argument. The young didn’t run deficits.

With a fiat money system, there's no requirement to ever pay it off. It isn't like credit card debt. The central bank just issues more money.

Yes it is like a credit card. You have to make payments and it reduces your cash flow. The Federal Reserve prints money not the government. And payments aren’t made with printed money.

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#134

Post by dd36 » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 3:57 PM UTC

crdoconnor wrote: post #98

dd36 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And debt is an intergenerational tax that fully offsets your argument. The young didn’t run deficits.

Deficits are not an intergenerational tax. They are funded by issuing bonds, which are assets that will get passed down through the generations. There is not really any such thing as an inter-generational wealth transfer. There are transfers from poor to rich that the rich are (successfully) scapegoating old people for.

The bonds/loans are spent and have to be repaid with future revenue. A bond is a liability to the issuer not an asset. There is a transfer and it’s current rich from future rich.

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#135

Post by dd36 » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 4:01 PM UTC

cdoxsey wrote: post #56

dd36 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is more wealthy. Moreover, perhaps Norway is wealthier because of its support systems.

Norway is wealthy because of oil: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_N...

I said wealthier. And yes, as other state, the US had and has significantly more natural resources per capita.

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#136

Post by dd36 » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 4:06 PM UTC

hn0 wrote: post #129

dd36 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And debt is an intergenerational tax that fully offsets your argument. The young didn’t run deficits.

It doesn't fully offset it. Avoiding debt by not investing leads to lower future growth prospects, resulting in opportunity loss. Debt is contractual and can be restructured.

Debt isn’t being used to invest. It’s being used to fund current operations. Otherwise, yes, using debt to finance investment is a good thing. That isn’t what’s happening at Federal level.

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#137

Post by MisterBastahrd » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 4:22 PM UTC

bequanna wrote: post #115

jimnotgym wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Poverty can also be a trap because... Actually there is contrary evidence. A study was carried out on the streets of London where they gave larger sums of cash no-strings-attached, and it showed that people in general took that money and used it to set themselves up in a job. One started a gardening business, for instance [0]. The idea that work is what people need is very Victorian, and reminds me of the tread-mil…

> If I can find a single days work I lose all of it. I can't speak to social programs outside of the US, but here, most of our programs (SNAP, Section-8, unemployment benefits) are on a sliding scale. This allows for benefits to somewhat decrease as earnings increase. That said, I anecdotally have noticed a couple things: 1. Many low income people actually aspire to be accepted into these programs, especially Section…

They're sorta on a sliding scale. I have a friend here in Texas who lost $900 a month in family benefits for finding a job that paid $4 an hour better.

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#138

Post by Nec28 » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 4:35 PM UTC

I love HN.

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#139

Post by notabee » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 4:41 PM UTC

cdoxsey wrote: post #132

notacoward wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's important to remember the more complex human psychology Yes, and it's important to remember that it is complex, not reduce it to simplistic formulae. Your theory is pretty much exactly contrary to empirical evidence. When you've earned money through hard work it can create a reward cycle, but it can also create a feeling of completion, of having done enough and having the right to stop. When you haven't earned…

I think providing assistance with no strings attached is a good thing. I just don't think its sufficient and a more holistic approach would work better. I also don't think this kind of program can scale though. It needs to be local and involve the community, not a faceless bureaucracy. To your point, you may feel indebted to a friend who helps you with some cash. But no one feels indebted to the federal government.

To add to your point, I think there would be ways to give more granular, specific assistance instead of just throwing money at people. Buying things like housing, food, and healthcare at scale makes sense for a government to do, as it should be cheaper. (The level of corruption in the current U.S. government might negate that, but it doesn't have to be that way. It's society's responsibility to hold its government to account, or change how elections are done if the system is broken. Democratic elections are the least bad idea for governance that we've come up with.) If the basic essentials can be provided (the very bottom of Maslow's hierarchy), then it would probably be better to provide opportunities for community and achievement beyond that point. That could be through funding community programs that can pay people for work to improve their neighborhood or city, or vocational training, or other indirect avenues. Maybe a small amount of direct money, but just to cover gaps in essentials. You also have to pay a significant amount for auditors and social workers to make sure the system is working sanely. Spending money intelligently can save money, just like you wouldn't buy an expensive car and then run it with the cheapest, shittiest oil and never change it.

The necessary but not sufficient conditions for someone to succeed are to be: not homeless, not starving, and not sick. After that point, it's up to the person. There will be free riders and slackers. It's impossible to avoid those, so you can only mitigate their impact. That bothers people in a moral sense, but financially it's not crippling at all if you're properly controlling costs and fraud. Just because that bottom percentile of human vice exists should not doom the many people who would be talented, motivated, and contribute to society if they were simply given some basic security.

Re: Poverty reduces brainpower needed for navigating other areas of life (2013)

#140

Post by brosirmandude » Sat, Jun 23, 2018, 4:45 PM UTC

zeth___ wrote: post #25

hellofunk wrote: post #12

Basic income. The older I get the more I strongly hope that the future finds some version of the ideas currently in research and testing regarding basic life support to all peoples. There is so much to gain by doing so, for everyone, whether you personally need it or not.

325 million people in the US. Give each person $10k so they can feed themselves and live in a tent. That's 3.25 trillion dollars. The total federal budget in 2015 was 3.8 trillion dollars [0]. After we disband the army, navy and air force, liquidate medicare, medicade and social security where do you think we should get the missing 1 trillion or so from? [0] https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-bu…

A political candidate for president is actually running on a UBI platform. The way he says we'll pay for it is this:

"Andrew proposes funding UBI by consolidating some welfare programs and implementing a Value-Added Tax (VAT) of 10%. Current welfare and social program beneficiaries would be given a choice between their current benefits or $1,000 cash unconditionally – most would prefer cash with no restriction.

A Value-Added Tax (VAT) is a tax on the production of goods or services a business produces. It is a fair tax and it makes it much harder for large corporations, who are experts at hiding profits and income, to avoid paying their fair share. A VAT is nothing new. 160 out of 193 countries in the world already have a Value-Added Tax or something similar, including all of Europe which has an average VAT of 20 percent."

Source: https://www.yang2020.com/what-is-ubi/