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Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Military Contracts

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Re: Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Military Contracts

#111
post #101

I wonder if Silicon Valley refuses to cooperate with the military if it won't mean that America won't be able to compete with China and Russia strategically in the long term. Those countries presumably have no problems getting their tech industry to cooperate. Russia having an advanced form of AI-weaponry without any form of MAD-doctrine is probably not the best scenario.

The US could counter that by poaching most of the best talent from China and Russia, even more than it already does.

Many promising young researchers from around the world earn their stripes at US universities, and loads of them would be happy to stay and become Americans. Unfortunately, the US immigration system makes that difficult and lots of them get sent home.

The best part about that plan is they don't even have to develop their own AI weapons. They could deny that capability to adversaries just by allowing those workers to take up interesting & lucrative jobs in the American civilian economy.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-05-31/u-s-shoul...

Re: Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Military Contracts

#112
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you sincerely believe that us dropping bombs in the middle east is "protecting American lives"? If anything, it's spawned a whole generation of terrorists who hate the US for destroying their country. The best way to protect Americans would be for our country to get out of expensive, overseas wars and invest that money in healthcare and ending the drug war, things that actually kill Americans in large numbers.

That is a very naive, but understandable, viewpoint. Take the time to learn about how important America’s military is to global stability: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/16/world/trump-m...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegemonic_stability_theory

Re: Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Military Contracts

#113
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you contribute to open source software then you’re contributing to military projects.

I'm not quite sure why this is downvoted, although I understand the nuance, it seems an interesting and related point. Out of interest, are there open source licenses that prevent use in military projects? ISTR reading something recently about it being legally questionable to discriminate between who can accept a license, but that was in the context of allowing open source for non-commercial purposes.

> Out of interest, are there open source licenses that prevent use in military projects?

This question is an oxymoron.

Both the definition of open source (by the Open Source Initiative) and the definition of free software (by the Free Software Foundation) explicitly forbid discriminating against any person or a group of people for software to be considered as open source / free software.

Re: Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Military Contracts

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you contribute to open source software then you’re contributing to military projects.

Contributing to something which could be used by the military is different to contributing to something which will be used by the military specifically .

IMO this is the correct answer.

Re: Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Military Contracts

#115

Every company I apply to is told during the interview process that I will not work on military projects, and that I would probably leave the company if they chose to take on a military contract. If you have personal moral limits and you’re upfront about them then no-one is the worse off; I’ve yet to be turned down for a job over it and, somewhat the opposite, companies seem to appreciate frankness.

And if I were hiring, I'd certainly think less of you for taking that stance.

Picture this: we're deep in the Cold War era, and Ronny Raygun is the president. The Star Wars initiative is in full swing. Nuclear mishaps and near-misses are still an all-too-frequent occurrence. Nena's red balloons are ready to fly. The President has just gone on the air and promised to "Outlaw Russia," and that "The bombing starts in five minutes." Some officers from the Pentagon approach your company's management and ask them to bid on a project that will involve launching dozens of military satellites equipped with atomic clocks, designed to locate any person, place, or thing on Earth at meter-scale accuracy.

Do you threaten to quit the company, lecture everyone who will listen about the potential for misuse of such dangerous technology... and miss out on the chance to contribute to GPS?

Or, how about a few years earlier, when they ask you to work on a colossal air-defense computer system using technology that hasn't even been invented yet. They want to use computers to vector fighters to intercept approaching Soviet bombers, and to target missiles to kill the ones the fighters miss. It's obvious to anyone not in uniform that the whole idea is insanely stupid, wasteful, and destabilizing. They want to spend $50 billion to develop a system that guarantees one whole 'nine' of uptime, that can be trivially jammed or disrupted, and that will literally be obsolete the day they turn it on since it can't deal with ballistic missiles.

So you tell them, "No, I don't want to work on SAGE. Peace out and fuck off." As it turns out, the system is indeed useless at its stated purpose. The spinoffs, on the other hand, not only revolutionize the entire IT industry, but create it. The next thirty years' worth of progress in computer architecture, memory and storage, networking, display and human interaction, and fault-tolerance is traceable directly to this boondoggle. All of these things would probably have taken decades longer to evolve without military funding and backing. Nobody dies as a result, but a bunch of your coworkers do get to play with a lot of cool toys.

Then there's the whole ARPAnet thing, funded by DoD to survive nuclear holocaust, asteroid strikes, plague, fire, and famine... any threat imaginable by anyone other than telecom-industry lobbyists.

Even the very wise cannot see all ends, and that goes for modern-day hippies too.

Re: Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Military Contracts

#116

Software engineers in the valley seem disconnected from reality. Maybe they believe politically correct fairies drop from the heavens and secure the US, it's borders and interests. Or maybe the Taliban and ISIS don't deserve drone attacks. Whatever their delusion, it's for the good. Military and defense funding yielded everything from the transistor to the internet. Let the next wave of innovation happen outside the…

US (wholly avoidable) intervention in Iraq led to the rise of ISIS. The world is not safer when you go around wacking hornets nests.

What lead to ISIS was the US pulling out too soon, leaving a huge power gap that the Iraqi government could not fill. Nation building takes decades. Germany and Japan were not rebuilt overnight to become the US' top allies after WWII: they were fully occupied by Allied forces for at least a generation before control was handed back to their respective local governments.

Re: Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Military Contracts

#118
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think you realize the security of our country has been built by hundreds of thousands of mechanical and electrical engineers, computer scientists, and physicists. Sure, working on military contracts may include uncomfortable problem spaces. But is it morally wrong to work on contracts that ultimately protect American lives?

Do you sincerely believe that us dropping bombs in the middle east is "protecting American lives"? If anything, it's spawned a whole generation of terrorists who hate the US for destroying their country. The best way to protect Americans would be for our country to get out of expensive, overseas wars and invest that money in healthcare and ending the drug war, things that actually kill Americans in large numbers.

As an Israeli, I believe that US intervention in the long term and the fact we were stuck in a proxy of the cold war did us mostly harm.

While we see the US as an ally here - we haven't traditionally been at war with Arab countries and I think a big part of it was the influx of military equipment from the US to Israel and from the USSR (and later Russia) to the surrounding countries. (This is an oversimplification but for brevity - I opted for just the gist of things)

Intervention in Iran and conquering it and installing a puppet government (the Shah) also did more harm than good in retrospect.

I believe that if the US exported more education and equalizers (like more accessible MOOCs, better infrastructure companies to get work there, more remote position etc). It would both be more competitive economically and would contribute more to middle-east stability.

Re: Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Military Contracts

#119

Meanwhile, regimes like China, North Korea or even Russia won’t have this kind of issues.

Well, the neighbor beats his wife, so I might as well beat mine.

What kind of logic is that?

We don't necessarily need to match lock-step with terrible regimes to ensure our own security, and our own security is the only argument for matching them in the military field.

For example, if someone else uses gas or landmines, we can use masks and airplanes to defeat them, without having to resort to those things that can't pick their targets, and remain on the field, where children play, decades after the war ends.

Re: Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Military Contracts

#120
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think you realize the security of our country has been built by hundreds of thousands of mechanical and electrical engineers, computer scientists, and physicists. Sure, working on military contracts may include uncomfortable problem spaces. But is it morally wrong to work on contracts that ultimately protect American lives?

I’m not American.

Good news then, you aren't eligible to work on the vast majority of USG software projects. Definitely anything remotely related to military drones.
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