Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Musk emails alleged Tesla saboteur, 'You're a horrible human being'

engadget.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 31 posts

Re: Musk emails alleged Tesla saboteur, 'You're a horrible human being'

#11

Post by alexryan »

mikec3010 wrote: post #4

Here are some moral judgements against Elon: * shopped around US cities to bargain for the most corporate welfare tax breaks for his gigafactory, effectively shoveling the taxburden onto the residents. * promised so many new jobs to Reno for the gigafactory, but most of the construction contracts were given to out of state construction firms. * uses "third party" contractor loopholes to separate workers from the comp…

If the moral system which you currently subscribe to is such that it is morally okay and perhaps even virtuous to demand that people who have voluntarily chosen to work together at higher level of work ethic should all be forced to lower their standards to be in accordance with your personal beliefs, then this moral judgement is valid. But you should seriously consider questioning that belief. People who voluntarily choose to work insane hours in Elon's companies are contributing an insane amount of value to this world and I for one am grateful for their sacrifices and contributions.

Re: Musk emails alleged Tesla saboteur, 'You're a horrible human being'

#12

Post by manicdee »

mikec3010 wrote: post #10
manicdee wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax-shopping is done by everyone, and the states are fully aware that tax shopping is a thing. Claiming this as a moral failing of Elon’s is bending the truth beyond breaking point. Do you have sources for your other claims?

> Tax-shopping is done by everyone And that includes Elon, and he can be judged for it. As for my other claims, I'm from Reno and I know what the labor situation is like up there and how Tesla lied to the city and county about their plans.

Did you look for a car or house that best suited your needs and budget?

Re: Musk emails alleged Tesla saboteur, 'You're a horrible human being'

#13

Post by taakd »

alexryan wrote: post #11
mikec3010 wrote: post #4

Here are some moral judgements against Elon: * shopped around US cities to bargain for the most corporate welfare tax breaks for his gigafactory, effectively shoveling the taxburden onto the residents. * promised so many new jobs to Reno for the gigafactory, but most of the construction contracts were given to out of state construction firms. * uses "third party" contractor loopholes to separate workers from the comp…

If the moral system which you currently subscribe to is such that it is morally okay and perhaps even virtuous to demand that people who have voluntarily chosen to work together at higher level of work ethic should all be forced to lower their standards to be in accordance with your personal beliefs, then this moral judgement is valid. But you should seriously consider questioning that belief. People who voluntarily…

Framing this as though employees have total freedom and choice wrt employer and working hours is plain incorrect. Those engineers at SpaceX aren't organized, thus they get screwed out of overtime and can't talk about the houra and working conditions they are pressured to labor under.

Re: Musk emails alleged Tesla saboteur, 'You're a horrible human being'

#14

Post by BLKNSLVR »

mikec3010 wrote: post #4

Here are some moral judgements against Elon: * shopped around US cities to bargain for the most corporate welfare tax breaks for his gigafactory, effectively shoveling the taxburden onto the residents. * promised so many new jobs to Reno for the gigafactory, but most of the construction contracts were given to out of state construction firms. * uses "third party" contractor loopholes to separate workers from the comp…

I agree with the things you've listed being morally wrong or at least grey area. A 'nice' person wouldn't necessarily do those things. eg. if Tesla's motto was 'be nice' then these things would make them hypocritical.

However, none of those things you've listed above are illegal. Corporate espionage, however, is illegal. That's the line separating what you've listed from what 'some guy' did.

The law may be an ass, but it's the law. It's up to society to care enough about 'not nice' to force the laws to be changed.

(This doesn't relate to your sympathy, but it does relate to how a business acts to maximise it's own interests within the limitations provided by the state / federal laws).

Re: Musk emails alleged Tesla saboteur, 'You're a horrible human being'

#16

Post by mikec3010 »

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #14
mikec3010 wrote: post #4

Here are some moral judgements against Elon: * shopped around US cities to bargain for the most corporate welfare tax breaks for his gigafactory, effectively shoveling the taxburden onto the residents. * promised so many new jobs to Reno for the gigafactory, but most of the construction contracts were given to out of state construction firms. * uses "third party" contractor loopholes to separate workers from the comp…

I agree with the things you've listed being morally wrong or at least grey area. A 'nice' person wouldn't necessarily do those things. eg. if Tesla's motto was 'be nice' then these things would make them hypocritical. However, none of those things you've listed above are illegal. Corporate espionage, however, is illegal. That's the line separating what you've listed from what 'some guy' did. The law may be an ass, bu…

I agree with you that there is a crime called "corporate espionage", but thus far the accused has not been criminally charged. And if he is, I dont see why he should face any worse penalty than when white-collar executives break the law and escape all serious consequences. The only difference is the accused didn't have a golden parachute to retire with.

Re: Musk emails alleged Tesla saboteur, 'You're a horrible human being'

#17

Post by oceanghost »

JudasGoat wrote: post #15

My take is that Elon has been putting a lot of effort right from the beginning to paint the "saboteur" as lacking credibility. It appears to me Mr Musk is worried about the message more than betrayal.

I have no specific knowledge of this case, but I agree with you this feels off. I have seen this dozen of times during the course of my own career.

The standard playbook anytime an employee whistleblows, makes an HR complaint, etc, is to paint them as disgruntled and look for a legal action they can make against them.

Re: Musk emails alleged Tesla saboteur, 'You're a horrible human being'

#18

Post by BLKNSLVR »

mikec3010 wrote: post #16
BLKNSLVR wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the things you've listed being morally wrong or at least grey area. A 'nice' person wouldn't necessarily do those things. eg. if Tesla's motto was 'be nice' then these things would make them hypocritical. However, none of those things you've listed above are illegal. Corporate espionage, however, is illegal. That's the line separating what you've listed from what 'some guy' did. The law may be an ass, bu…

I agree with you that there is a crime called "corporate espionage", but thus far the accused has not been criminally charged. And if he is, I dont see why he should face any worse penalty than when white-collar executives break the law and escape all serious consequences. The only difference is the accused didn't have a golden parachute to retire with.

The free pass that the upper levels get is an inescapable systemic flaw that causes me frustration and blood pressure problems. (cough Panama Papers cough)

Gives me the kind of angst that Vader experienced when informed of Padme's passing. But less comically lame and more existentially threatening.

Re: Musk emails alleged Tesla saboteur, 'You're a horrible human being'

#19

Post by sn41 »

outworlder wrote: post #2

Not a lawyer. However, isn't the usual advice, specially for CEOs, to keep quiet and not engage in any way? From a legal and PR perspective. In any case, I find this to be refreshing. Enough with the sterile press releases drafted by lawyers.

Agree. I am not entirely sure what the sabotage was, or its impact, and do not necessarily empathize with Musk. But I think that honest language in official releases is something that will reduce the stranglehold that lawyers have on corporate communications.

Re: Musk emails alleged Tesla saboteur, 'You're a horrible human being'

#20

Post by toasterlovin »

taakd wrote: post #13
alexryan wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the moral system which you currently subscribe to is such that it is morally okay and perhaps even virtuous to demand that people who have voluntarily chosen to work together at higher level of work ethic should all be forced to lower their standards to be in accordance with your personal beliefs, then this moral judgement is valid. But you should seriously consider questioning that belief. People who voluntarily…

Framing this as though employees have total freedom and choice wrt employer and working hours is plain incorrect. Those engineers at SpaceX aren't organized, thus they get screwed out of overtime and can't talk about the houra and working conditions they are pressured to labor under.

They’re extremely intelligent and hardworking engineers; they can just get a job somewhere else.
Post reply on HN