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Canada legalises recreational cannabis use

bbc.co.uk

281–290 of 431 posts

Re: Canada legalises recreational cannabis use

#281
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Obviously we want to restrict access as much as possible to particular drugs, such as heroin or methamphetamine, which are so harmful and addictive that nobody should be using them, or GHB, where the potential for fatal overdose is so high. I dont understand this part. The potential for overdose on alcohol is high as well. I can go buy a plastic handle for $10 and if i drink the whole thing tonight i'll probably di…

its way easier to overdose on hard drugs than alcohol. with alcohol, its a slow progress. you keep drinkng and most people pass out / lose their will to drink after they've had enough. hard drugs are generally a single portion and once its in your blood, its too late. you cant say 'hey, i've got enough for today' once you feel it hitting you. You're already doomed if you've chosen the wrong dosage from the start. > T…

> I cant say i've ever heard of anyone ever using heroine responsibly.

I don't think its the sort of thing people will advertise. Apparently only around 10% of users become addicts

Re: Canada legalises recreational cannabis use

#282
post #160

Meanwhile in Britain, the former leader of the Conservative Party, William Hague, spoke out and claimed that the war on cannabis had been "irreversibly lost". He was quickly shut down by Theresa May, who categorically ruled out legalisation or even decriminalisation [1]. I don't understand how politicians can stand up and claim that legalisation would have substantial negatives, when every experiment with legalisatio…

We already have many problems caused by alcohol and cigarettes, costing taxpayers billions in unnecessary expenses. I get it, people need to escape reality they live in. We know that some weed smokers end up schizophrenic and that in general smoking weed weakens one's will, so in many cases we end up with grown up children going only after the things attainable by easiest efforts. There are also some legit medical us…

Sugar and fried food cause more health problems than marijuana. Refined sugar can cause serious problems for people with diabetes and is not at all a required part of our diet, so why is refined sugar legal?

300,000 people die every year in the USA due to obesity related issues, compared to 70,000 deaths due to drug overdose. Obesity is the biggest public health crisis in the USA, but is largely ignored as it's seen as a personal choice to die of diabetes.

My purpose in life is not to slave away creating wealth for society until I die. Why does it matter if someone escapes from the world whether by taking drugs, playing in video games, or engaging in kinky sex? Are we supposed to go to work to advance society, then come home, eat dinner, make some more children (missionary position only!), and then sleep?

Re: Canada legalises recreational cannabis use

#283
post #225
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although the US has a lot of influence on international culture and laws the above is simply not really true. Drug laws in Europe vary wildly between countries, with places like Portgual decriminalising even hard drugs and places like the Netherlands having an open culture when it comes to buying and consuming cannabis and other 'less hard' drugs. Then of course there's the big difference in laws when it comes to dri…

> vary wildly between countries Not really, name a European country where I won't be jailed for having even an ounce of cocaine? Portugal is as close as it gets to sensible drug policy, and they've only decriminalized (as opposed to legalized) small personal-use amounts. The only drugs that should be regulated are antibiotics :)

> Not really, name a European country where I won't be jailed for having even an ounce of cocaine?

Spain. A couple of years ago I was in Madrid and went out to a bar with some friends. One of them tells me to come outside with him, then he proceeds to prepare some cocaine lines on the roof of a random car parked on the street right outside the bar. When he's about to snort them, some normal looking guys approach us (not in uniforms) and then all of a sudden they flash their badges (they were cops). I thought I was going to jail right there and then.

The cops asked for our ids and then started grilling us about where the cocaine came from, they said that if we gave up our dealer they would let us go. My friend was feeding them random info which they wouldnt buy. Then one of our friends who was inside the bar came outside looking for us. Somehow he realized what was going on at a glance, he walks up to the cops and asks what's going on. The cops tell him they caught us in possession of cocaine. Before they could keep talking, he cuts them off and demands that they write us a ticket and let us go. The cops are a little bit baffled and are about to say something when our friend tells them he's a lawyer, that he knows how these things work and sternly demands again they give us a ticket and let us go.

After that the cops didn't say a word. They just gave a ticket to my friend who had the cocaine (I didn't even get one), confiscated the cocaine and then let us go.

One of the biggest scares of my life.

Re: Canada legalises recreational cannabis use

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I which it isn’t. I’ve seen a high school friend falling into that gradually: he started speaking about cannabis to the point it became its only topic of conversation. Then of course he hanged only with people with similar interest. He became weird during the breaks and needed to smoke something, anything. After that when I went to the university he became a small dealer. He got enough money from that activity to ren…

Would making it illegal have prevented this?

I'm Canadian and I think legalization is the right choice, but I think there is some dishonesty on both sides, which is doing everyone a disservice.

The anti-cannabis people will say it's a "gateway drug" and that it will destroy your life, while some elements on the the pro-cannabis side would have you believe it's some sort of panacea. The reality is that it can cause intense anxiety and paranoia in some people, and some people do get addicted to it. As with every other drug, you should tread carefully and have some amount of self-awareness when using it.

PS: I hope that mushrooms will be made legal at some point. They show a lot of promise for use as antidepressants.

Re: Canada legalises recreational cannabis use

#285
post #187
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very US centric view but the war on drugs is very international. Cannabis is illegal in most of the world where Americas race relations simply aren't issues, so I really don't buy into this reasoning. This is good old moral superiority at work.

"This is a very US centric view but the war on drugs is very international." US basically dictates global policies in the block of countries not part of the soviet sphere of influence during the cold war. US defends it's position in the global community using every trick and leverage available. If something is illegal in the US you can be quite assured they will try to apply leverage to make it illegal everywhere els…

Then why would places unaligned with the US follow similar policies? Places like Cuba, Iran, etc?

Re: Canada legalises recreational cannabis use

#286
post #118

I despise getting involved in threads like this, because they always descend into whataboutism ("Oh, but alcohol is worse!, etc.), but here we go with my anecdotal evidence. Me, personally, not a huge fan. I dabbled and experimented like a good chunk of Americans, decided it wasn't for me. Not necessarily because I didn't enjoy it - although I was involved in quite a bit of team sports at the time and was worried abo…

It’s not about whether using cannabis is a good idea. It’s about whether having it be a severe criminal offense is a good way to discourage use. That approach quite obviously hasn’t worked, and has resulted in various serious externalities such as criminal enterprises.

I think that this point gets a bit lost, though: I wholeheartedly support cannabis legalization (for all the good reasons we're all aware of) but it seems like in every discussion of the issue people act like smoking cannabis is a perfectly healthy past-time. It's not, it's clearly unhealthy.

That doesn't mean it should be illegal (lots of unhealthy stuff is legal!), but it does mean that it's a very good idea to avoid it.

Re: Canada legalises recreational cannabis use

#287

Meanwhile in Britain, the former leader of the Conservative Party, William Hague, spoke out and claimed that the war on cannabis had been "irreversibly lost". He was quickly shut down by Theresa May, who categorically ruled out legalisation or even decriminalisation [1]. I don't understand how politicians can stand up and claim that legalisation would have substantial negatives, when every experiment with legalisatio…

> Drug prohibition has been a categorical failure in every outcome it was intended to achieve. The following flavor of comment has been made many times on HN, but since I’m halfway through Michelle Alexander’s book The New Jim Crow I’m in the mood for making it again here: The drug war has been “successful”, because its goal was to incarcerate, disenfranchise, extort, terrorize, and break apart the families of minori…

It seems less than coincidental that your second poll was in the late 80's when the crack epidemic was in full swing. Parallel that to the opiate of now, and I think the dramatic swing can be normalized quite a lot.

Re: Canada legalises recreational cannabis use

#288
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re making some quite wild assumptions about motivation and impact of the use of various substances. If you looked at those that literally are making those profound advancements you’re worried about losing, you’d also often be looking at those that moderately and recreational partake in some of these substances. The people that partake but still excel aren’t as visible as those that don’t get themselves of…

I think it's inevitable we research what exactly drugs do to people as science progresses; I am strictly against exposing the whole population to it though. What I would be in favor of is to give adults a choice to take those drugs for 20-30 years but require them to be enrolled into a health monitoring system so that the effects could be researched properly and then an informed judgement be made (only for those pers…

I think that’s a legitimate approach. Though I personally think all substances should be decriminalized (rather than legalized) as in the case of things like heroin addiction the addicts fear of punishment and the stigma keeps people from seeking help and ultimately we should want them to seek help.

Alcoholism would exist with or without alcohol being illegal, the only difference would be that drinking alcohol would be more dangerous for those wishing to drink responsibly and those drinking irresponsibly would have less options to become well.

Regarding these other substances though I wholeheartedly agree real research is needed. It’s one of the really tragic things about the war on drugs actually, that research was completely stopped. Even if you keep a substance illegal, researchers should still be allowed to investigate these things. There’s life changing non mind altering treatment for cluster headaches for example that has been nearly impossible to research until recently and even still it’s never going to see the light of day in this political climate around drug paranoia even though it has zero mind altering impacts (it’s a chemical related to lsd where they modified to remove the altering effect).

I’m pretty ok with substances being banned (albeit not my preference) in general as long as research is allowed to continue and the ban persists based on information produced from that research. I.E. it’s not based on fear mongering but science.

Another aside, one of the main reasons I think decriminalization (for all) and legalization (for some) is pretty compelling is that it makes it a lot easier to regulate to ensure the products themselves are safe. A large number of the safety issues simply comes from people obtaining unsafe/fake products. Though regulation you have consistency. Nowadays with recreational marijuana you can see the lab report for every single product. Back in the day you just had to rely on some shady character telling you “it’s good”.

People are going to be doing these things, keeping them illegal in the way we have been (serious jail times for personal possession) only creates more harm and cost to society rather than alleviate it (the supposed goal). The war on drugs has created a quite insane cost through mandatory minimums and three strikes laws.. if the goal was to reduce cost to society we’d have saved money providing government supplied drugs to addicts. If the goal is to “save” or prevent harm to addicts, locking them up and making them felons seems to be having the opposite effect. They fear seeking help, and once caught up in our penal system it’s hard to escape.

So what part of criminalization is really benefiting us?

Re: Canada legalises recreational cannabis use

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent comment is correct. It’s not even a controversial position, as it’s been stated publically by the people who crafted and implemented the legislation that this was the stated aim. And the US demanded that other countries adopt our drug policy laws and they followed our lead. This cognitive censorship is something to be outraged about - flies directly in the face of the Establishment Clause of the first Amem…

> And the US demanded that other countries adopt our drug policy laws and they followed our lead. I know it's a common meme on HN but I find it hard to believe that the whole world decided to ban cannabis just because the US wanted to. It may have been a contributing/deciding factor in some places but there must be more to it.

I don’t think policy happens in a vacuum. And I imagine the same forces were are work in other counties as well — drug laws are a great way to keep young people and minorities disempowered and to preserve institutional power.

>> A top Nixon aide, John Ehrlichman, later admitted: “You want to know what this was really all about. The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I’m saying. We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did. <<

Re: Canada legalises recreational cannabis use

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would making it illegal have prevented this?

I'm Canadian and I think legalization is the right choice, but I think there is some dishonesty on both sides, which is doing everyone a disservice. The anti-cannabis people will say it's a "gateway drug" and that it will destroy your life, while some elements on the the pro-cannabis side would have you believe it's some sort of panacea. The reality is that it can cause intense anxiety and paranoia in some people, an…

Absolutely - this is an example case where the legal status of the drug I don't think would have made a difference, the drug clearly had a profound effect on this individual. Cannabis is by no means a safe drug (no drugs are 100% safe), but it does tend to get painted as either black or white by either side. The politicisation of the issue makes it hard to have a rational discussion around drug risks, and harms, especially in relation to each other (e.g. cannabis is much safer than alcohol by most measures, especially when not smoked). Almost all drugs also have benefits too, including alcohol and even heroin - which has therapeutic benefit for the terminally ill in extreme pain, for example.

Sadly we're a very long way away from a truly rational approach to drug use, not least because we've spent the best part of a century making it a moral issue.

(Mushrooms - one of the safest drugs - were legal in the UK, but were made illegal a few years ago - amid moral panic).

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