Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#81

Post by cr1895 » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 8:30 AM UTC

firic wrote: post #68

Karishma1234 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. Children are not separated because you used your prescription medicine after its end date. Children are not separated because you ran a red light. Border crossing is merely misdemeanor and most of them are just seeking asylum. > Illegal aliens ignore US law, knowing full well that their acts are illegal and have consequences. Go to a port of entry or embassy like all other immigrants. It's that simple. Mo…

Running a red light usually does not result in arrest. But if someone ran a red light and then refused to show their license and got arrested. Well, if their child was with them, then the child would not be put in the same prison that the parent was put in. ie. they would be separated. I didn't read the law so I may be mistaken, but based on my understanding is someone comes to a proper boarder control and claims asy…

>I didn't read the law so I may be mistaken

You can read about the asylum process here:

https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum/ob...

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#82

Post by adjkant » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 8:31 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #73

adjkant wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think both as tech becomes more ubiquitous, but I think the clarity is coming from a lag in perception because of the exact sentiment of "keep politics out of tech". I think a lot of programmers, particularly ones from a generation older than the average tech worker today, got into the field for partially the reason of that separation. It's honestly a great way to live a fulfilling life without having to address th…

> It's honestly a great way to live a fulfilling life without having to address the bigger problems in the world personally. I thought it's a great way to actually address the bigger problems in the world personally. Because most political involvement is precisely the opposite of effective helping. Politics is arguing that climate change is a communist/leftist/whatever invention. Tech is launching a satellite letting…

What politics in the US government currently is or what it is in a typical discussion between two people on the street does not define politics. I'm also not talking political science. I'm also talking morality, not just politics. Your grievances seem to be about the current political climate rather than politics generally. I'm with you on the political climate currently for sure. Given HN's opinion of itself, I'd hope they'd at least strive for better in political discussions though.

The classic example is the building of the atom bomb. Sure some people may build a satellite, but far more will program things to show ads. The choice alone to work on the satellite and not the ads is both a moral and political decision. If you don't make the distinction, you're ignoring the underlying issue. And it's of course not as black and white as "make a satellite to get data for science" and "make ads".

You're right that tech can power change in a positive way, but it's much more about the choices we make in regards to what tech we work on. That's exactly my point. All tech is a tool that must be used with care.

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#83

Post by dawnerd » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 8:31 AM UTC

cr1895 wrote: post #78

briandear wrote: post #52

Weird, employees had nothing to say in 2014 when these images were published: http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/06/18/photos-ob... Kids were being separated then and being housed in the exact same facilities being used now. Interestingly, this story “breaks” the exact same week the FBI inspector general’s report was released. I am not judging the wrongness or rightness of what is and has happened in terms…

>Kids were being separated then Incorrect; the story you linked describes unaccompanied minors. Separating families is solely the doing of the Trump Administration. "Detaining child border crossers was a policy during the Obama administration, where Breitbart Texas exclusively reported on the conditions in which unaccompanied minors were being packed into crowded cells and holding facilities." https://www.nytimes.com…

I think the part people like OP are missing is if it was happening as they say then, it doesn't make it right now. They're just shifting blame for something they can be a part of stopping.

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#84

Post by refoundglory » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 8:33 AM UTC

danjayh wrote: post #18

everdev wrote: post #9

As I get older, it's becoming clear how intertwined our morality is with our politics. And how that bleeds into business, sports, religion, etc. It's nice to think of aspects of life that should be free from politics, but in reality that seems hard to achieve.

This situation in particular is more complicated than the media portrays. Separating children from parents is obviously bad, and needs to stop. Zero tolerance for illegal crossings, on the other hand, is probably actually good. The prior policy of letting anyone with children go & handing them a court date heavily incentivized human trafficking of children, because a child was a golden ticket into the USA (and indeed…

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Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#85

Post by cr1895 » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 8:35 AM UTC

briandear wrote: post #54

int_19h wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my experience talking to different people in US, most of them on both sides of the immigration debate have zero clue what their immigration laws are even like. One theme that's particularly common is hearing "they should just get into the line and wait for their turn". They genuinely don't understand that there is no line for the majority of those people - they don't have any legal avenues for immigration at all…

But that isn’t true. Asylum applications can be submitted to a US consulate. There is a process. Syrian refugees didn’t just show up in Laredo. Asylum can also be requested at a legal port of entry. These unlawful entry arrests are from aliens entering the country while avoiding ports of entry.

>Asylum applications can be submitted to a US consulate.

False.

"To obtain asylum through the affirmative asylum process you must be physically present in the United States. You may apply for asylum status regardless of how you arrived in the United States or your current immigration status."

"A defensive application for asylum occurs when you request asylum as a defense against removal from the U.S. For asylum processing to be defensive, you must be in removal proceedings in immigration court with the Executive Office for Immigration Review (EOIR)."

https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum/ob...

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#86

Post by pavelludiq » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 8:36 AM UTC

bkor wrote: post #69

jgaa wrote: post #45

Governments will always do evil. Not to everyone, all of the time - but they are by nature evil. When I wrote the War FTP Daemon in 1996, as freeware, this became a problem to me. I did want to give away my work for free, but I did not want any government agency to abuse it. So I came up with a solution - a GPL license with an additional clause - that the government - any government - could not use it for any purpose…

> Governments will always do evil. Not to everyone, all of the time - but they are by nature evil. If a lot of people assume this, then eventually behaviour happens according to the expectation. Within Netherlands I assume the government is usually there to make things better (though there are exceptions). What is considered better might be completely different, but still, it's assumed to be better. I've since have a…

The whole concept of liberalism is based on the assumption that governments are extremely dangerous and potentially evil and in need of constant control by both the public and it's own institutions. Even if it appears that a specific government or institution is doing good work, it is extremely dangerous to accept that as anything other than a temporary and potentially deceiving state of affairs.

Constant distrust and suspicion of power is crucial to a free and prosperous society. Politicians, officials and even private executives should never receive praise from the public, if they are doing good work the public should just shrug and say to themselves "yeah, ok, you're not horrible right now". Governments are never good, at best they are not actively harmful.

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#87

Post by refoundglory » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 8:40 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #73

adjkant wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think both as tech becomes more ubiquitous, but I think the clarity is coming from a lag in perception because of the exact sentiment of "keep politics out of tech". I think a lot of programmers, particularly ones from a generation older than the average tech worker today, got into the field for partially the reason of that separation. It's honestly a great way to live a fulfilling life without having to address th…

> It's honestly a great way to live a fulfilling life without having to address the bigger problems in the world personally. I thought it's a great way to actually address the bigger problems in the world personally. Because most political involvement is precisely the opposite of effective helping. Politics is arguing that climate change is a communist/leftist/whatever invention. Tech is launching a satellite letting…

[dead]

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#88

Post by bkor » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 8:44 AM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #75

Certhas wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That last part is just the slippery slope fallacy though. There are many cases where you are not allowed to lie, and knowingly helping someone lie is also a criminal offence.

Was Trump's water sport in Moscow story fake news? It has been widely used by CNN. As far as I know it as never been proven. Political debates are riddled with half truth, exaggerations, and carefully selected statistics. It is a slippery slope. It's not as binary as a computer program where it is either correct or not correct.

The fallacy is about doing nothing because one action might eventually lead to a bad action being taken. The solution is to still take the action (e.g. not working together), while being careful not to immediately go on a witch hunt for any deemed wrong.

The response from Microsoft management is good I think. They mention it's just about email, calendar, etc. There's nothing special in providing that. The Google case was quite different.

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#89

Post by Ntrails » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 8:45 AM UTC

jadedhacker wrote: post #38

deegles wrote: post #3

> “Our current engagement with ICE is focused on moving legacy infrastructure such as mail, calendar, messaging and document management to the cloud using Azure.” I don’t understand why this makes it any better. I’m sure there’s a lot of “messaging and document management” needed to run those detainment centers. And besides, what’s going to happen in the future when they do ask to use Cognitive Services in their miss…

Child concentration camps run a lot smoother on Office 365, now on Azure! EDIT: Anyone that collaborates with ICE from this point forward is complicit. In a just world, collaborators, ICE officers, and high officials would be tried in the International Criminal Court. Following orders or making money was not an acceptable defensible at Nuremberg, nor will it be in the coming future when the US loses enough internatio…

Why on earth would you want to prosecute the supermarket where ICE buys loo roll? The builders merchant who sold them fence posts?

I mean, the hyperbole is real here - because there's zero chance the international courts prosecute any US citizen - but if they did it's not going to be the people who sold them spreadsheet software.

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#90

Post by Certhas » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 8:46 AM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #75

Certhas wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That last part is just the slippery slope fallacy though. There are many cases where you are not allowed to lie, and knowingly helping someone lie is also a criminal offence.

Was Trump's water sport in Moscow story fake news? It has been widely used by CNN. As far as I know it as never been proven. Political debates are riddled with half truth, exaggerations, and carefully selected statistics. It is a slippery slope. It's not as binary as a computer program where it is either correct or not correct.

Not been proven vs lying is a difference. For example, Trump saying Germany has increased crime due to immigration and is fixing its crime statistics, or his ambassador to the Netherlands saying in the Netherlands politicians are being burned are lies.

Advertisement is also riddled with half truth, exaggerations, and carefully selected statistics. Yet false advertisement is still illegal. And in my opinion advertisement should be much more strongly restricted still.

As it is you've just reiterated the (IMO) fallacious slippery slope argument, and not addressed my point that it's a fallacy.

Just because there is a grey area doesn't mean we need to freeze in paralysis. I say because of the grey area we should be careful with where we draw the line, but the existence of grey does not make it impossible or prohibitively dangerous to draw one. Otherwise we would have no laws.