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Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

nytimes.com

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Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#251

Post by chris_wot »

burfog wrote: post #233
naikrovek wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's cruel, unusual, and inhumane, and almost certainly unconstitutional.

Haven't we done this ever since we invented jail/prison? Very few countries let criminals bring their kids to prison or require it. There must be more than one country that puts kids in prison with the parents, but right now I can only think of one: North Korea Most people consider that to be cruel and inhumane. In case you were thinking that parents (or all people?) should never go to prison, well... that gets absur…

People fleeing for their lives aren't in any way criminals. Equating immigrants with murderers is quite despicable.

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#252

Post by gremlinsinc »

rqp wrote: post #241
gremlinsinc wrote: post #235

If I had the money, I'd start a non-profit who's goal is to get tech companies, and localities to boycott ICE, NSA and unethical government initiatives. Though, I guess EFF kind of does a lot of that. But, I wouldn't mind devoting all my time to that sort of thing instead of coding all day. :P

Tech Workers Coalition

Looks cool.. googled link if anyone's interested: https://techworkerscoalition.org/

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#254

Post by slavak »

thirdsun wrote: post #250
duxup wrote: post #244

I worked for companies who worked with intelligence services and military. I had no major issues. Concerns maybe but it's hard to know the details and bad things happen in war no matter what... so I didn't really think much of it. The whole thing with ICE separating children from families, targeting folks with minor past misdemeanors.... it's all so strangely overtly immoral and unnecessary. I could see taking a stan…

> The whole thing with ICE separating children from families, targeting folks with minor past misdemeanors It's my understanding that they apply this horrible policy to any asylum seeking family - no misdemeanors required.

The very act of crossing the border is a misdemeanor, and thanks to Jeff Sessions' "Zero Tolerance" policy, almost every adult is being prosecuted, even if they are not dangerous and even if they apply for asylum.

In other words: A misdemeanor is still required. If you do not have a misdemeanor available, one will be provided for you.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/19/17475326/f...

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#255

Post by jaredklewis »

downandout wrote: post #230
evanlivingston wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laws can be unethical? Protesting Jim Crow laws was a good thing?

It’s unethical to require people from other countries that want to enter the US to follow certain, well established, legal protocols before they enter? I’m all for legal immigration. I guess I just don’t understand all the support for illegal immigration. Edit: based on the downvotes, there must be some kind of benefit to the US arising from illegal immigration that I’m missing. Could one of you that downvoted this p…

> It's unethical to require people from other countries that want to enter the US to follow certain, well established, legal protocols before they enter?

The contents of letter state that it is a reaction to the recent news that babies and toddlers of immigrants crossing the border illegally are being separated from their parents in the hundreds. We have no evidence that these parents have been charged with violent or other crimes of a nature that might justify the separation for the children's safety.

In no way does the letter assert that it supports illegal immigration, as I think your comment suggests. Rather, the letter accuses ICE of inhumane treatment of children in a way that violates international law.

So the letter cosigners might very well be strongly against illegal immigration. I am strongly against homicide, for instance. That being said, I would like our prisons to treat convicted murderers in a humane way. Just because I am against murder, it doesn't mean I want prisoners to be water boarded or starved or what have you.

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#256

Post by jaredklewis »

wildmusings wrote: post #56
jsemrau wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Good on these folks for stepping up. I am not American, but this is the point in time where you take a stand. Where America needs to fight for it's democracy. This is not the time to be complacent.

Defending our democracy? How about the majorities that passed the immigration laws that are being enforced? What does democracy have to do with the right to immigrate to America without permission? Edit: I’m not commenting on the propriety of the Microsoft employees’ actions. They are clearly free to urge their employer to refrain from participating in something they disagree with. That is absolutely part of what liv…

> Defending our democracy? How about the majorities that passed the immigration laws that are being enforced?

I feel you are using the word democracy in a very narrow sense of the word: popularity contest. Look no further than the Egyptian government that arose from Arab Spring to see how little such "election winner takes all" democratic governments differ from autocracy.

Democracy, taken in the broader sense of a truly free country, requires much more than just free elections. Human rights and rule of law are just as important. Indeed, our two most important founding documents, the declaration of independence and constitution, clearly outline a vision for a humane country that respects that all individuals possess human rights that our government cannot violate.

I believe the parent is calling on fellow citizens to defend our democracy’s enshrinement of human rights.

> What does democracy have to do with the right to immigrate to America without permission?

Who is claiming these immigrants have a right to immigrate to America without permission? Certainly not the Microsoft employees or anyone in this thread.

The letter doesn't complain that ICE is enforcing immigration laws. It asserts that ICE is doing so in a way that is inhumane to children.

In short, this isn't just an immigration issue. It's a human rights issue.

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#257

Post by peterashford »

downandout wrote: post #230
evanlivingston wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laws can be unethical? Protesting Jim Crow laws was a good thing?

It’s unethical to require people from other countries that want to enter the US to follow certain, well established, legal protocols before they enter? I’m all for legal immigration. I guess I just don’t understand all the support for illegal immigration. Edit: based on the downvotes, there must be some kind of benefit to the US arising from illegal immigration that I’m missing. Could one of you that downvoted this p…

Plenty of countries discourage immigration. That is not controversial. No-one splits up people's families and takes their kids away. One issue is a bog-standard legal issue, the other issue is a human rights abuse and is morally despicable. Your edit to your post indicates that you don't seem to get the moral dimension to this issue.

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#258

Post by peterashford »

backpack31337 wrote: post #162
Ar-Curunir wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it OK to imprison children? At the current scale?

That's a hyperbolic misrepresentation of the issue and you know it.

As was your prior post. I live in New Zealand. There is universal disgust here for the current ICE actions - regardless of political stripe. I notice that many Republicans have spoken out against the policy also. Are you seriously suggesting that they are anti-Republican too?

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#259

Post by peterashford »

ginger123 wrote: post #96
popularrecluse wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've done everything from washing dishes, waiting tables, managing 2 coffee shops, landscape work, data entry, to my current work as a mobile developer. And I know where you're going with this, and no I've never had trouble finding work when I needed it.

What if I told you the presence of undocumented immigrants might have depressed your earnings as a dishwasher. No hard feelings still? PS. I know, I am assigning a stereotypical job to an undocumented immigrant.

Research in the New Zealand context has shown that immigrants improve the economy. They generate a lot work for people helping them settle in and they often work hard themselves.

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#260

Post by downandout »

peterashford wrote: post #257
downandout wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s unethical to require people from other countries that want to enter the US to follow certain, well established, legal protocols before they enter? I’m all for legal immigration. I guess I just don’t understand all the support for illegal immigration. Edit: based on the downvotes, there must be some kind of benefit to the US arising from illegal immigration that I’m missing. Could one of you that downvoted this p…

Plenty of countries discourage immigration. That is not controversial. No-one splits up people's families and takes their kids away. One issue is a bog-standard legal issue, the other issue is a human rights abuse and is morally despicable. Your edit to your post indicates that you don't seem to get the moral dimension to this issue.

But being separated from your kids is a natural consequence of breaking the law. You commit a crime and go to jail, and your children no longer have parents while you’re in jail.
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