Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging sabotage' by employee • Hacker News Board

Re: Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging sabotage' by employee

#321

Post by neotek » Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 7:17 AM UTC

manicdee wrote: post #317

neotek wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't be so disingenuous. Nobody is claiming the cars don't exist, the point is that Musk continuously makes insane, overreaching predictions that almost never come to pass, like the ludicrous "three months maybe, six months definitely" fully autonomous driving nonsense, or promises that Model 3 production will be on track for x units per month when the actual numbers are half that, and so on. This is so typical of a…

You claimed that Elon is a huckster monorail salesman, a direct reference to an episode of the Simpsons involving a con job to sell a non functional and dangerous product to a gawping crowd. That’s pretty much claiming that Elon is selling dodgy products that aren’t fit for purpose, and running off to Tahiti with the money. Yet we have Teslas that are widely loved by their owners, with many owners buying a second one…

What a shabby attempt at deflection. Do you have any intention at all of arguing honestly, or are you going to continue putting words in my mouth?

Re: Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging sabotage' by employee

#322

Post by breakingcups » Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 7:17 AM UTC

ckastner wrote: post #295

> Looking forward to having a great week with you as we charge up the super exciting ramp to 5000 Model 3 cars per week! This was actually the most surprising part to me -- it appears that they believe that they will actually make the 5K/week goal by the end of this quarter. As to the allegations... the email doesn't say much, but it sounds like a disgruntled employee grabbing data to me, and perhaps modifying some O…

Then again, Musk knows that this email will instantly get leaked. This is PR as much as anything.

Re: Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging sabotage' by employee

#323

Post by FearOfReprisal » Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 7:20 AM UTC

SmirkingRevenge wrote: post #102

ucaetano wrote: post #34

We need to figure out if he was acting alone or with others at Tesla and if he was working with any outside organizations. As you know, there are a long list of organizations that want Tesla to die. These include Wall Street short-sellers, who have already lost billions of dollars and stand to lose a lot more. Then there are the oil & gas companies, the wealthiest industry in the world — they don't love the idea of T…

So should our cynicism with respect to corporate ethics be aimed at Tesla only? Or do other corporations sometimes do bad/unethical/paranoid/greedy things too? I suppose its just Tesla.

[dead]

Re: Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging sabotage' by employee

#324

Post by djur » Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 7:25 AM UTC

JoshCole wrote: post #280

pwinnski wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the logic here that because some conspiracy theories have turned out to be true, all conspiracy theories are likely true? That seems... unwise.

He's pointing that calling someone a conspiracy theorist is an example of an ad hominem attack. Which it is and was and always will be. Calling someone a conspiracy theorist is talking about a person, not the ideas they are expressing. According to Paul Graham in his article How to Disagree an ad hominem attack is the second weakest form of disagreement, only a little better than calling someone mean names. However,…

Not exactly. Calling someone a "conspiracy theorist" can certainly be an ad hominem attack akin to calling someone a "wacko", but it can also be shorthand for "your argument is structured like a conspiracy theory", and conspiracy theories tend to be logically unsound because they are unfalsifiable. (Broadly speaking, the conspiracy theorist can always explain away evidence contrary to their claims by suggesting that it, too, is part of the conspiracy.)

9/11 truthers, birthers, JFK assassination theorists, Illuminati/Satanist/New World Order types, pizzagaters, ZOG-believing antisemites, flat earthers, hollow earthers, etc. all have common rhetorical tactics and modes of argumentation that are distinctly "conspiracy theorist".

Re: Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging sabotage' by employee

#325

Post by elihu » Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 7:27 AM UTC

Johnny555 wrote: post #232

venning wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the hundreds of $1000 spent just defending his short position through hiring former Herbalife people, funding legal campaigns, funding support groups You are describing entirely legal actions. Sabotage and (this form of) industrial espionage are very much illegal. There's quite a difference there. > a few $100k is pocket change for these guys But a few billion dollars of market cap and a few years of jail time are…

But a few billion dollars of market cap and a few years of jail time are the price of being found guilty of what Musk is insinuating. If I stood to lose $100M, I wouldn't do the dirty work myself, I'd hire someone else to do it for whom taking that risk for $100K (or whatever) is worth the risk - that could be several years (tax-free) pay for some people. I'd use several levels of anonymization or maybe redirection t…

I expect that's how most industrial espionage happens; some company employs the services of some third party research firm to investigate a competitor's product and doesn't explicitly ask for anything illegal. Maybe that third party hires other contractors, and so on. The actionable information bubbles up through the chain, and the original company that funded the "research" has no idea where it came from. They might not even have had any intention of causing a crime to be committed, but ignorance is bliss.

It would be a lot harder to plausibly deny paying some third party for explicit sabotage; as far as I know, companies don't normally pay third parties to cause harm to a competitor for legitimate business reasons.

Re: Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging sabotage' by employee

#326

Post by natch » Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 7:29 AM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #88

senthil_rajasek wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Musk is going a bit too far in suggesting that other forces are involved unless he has credible evidence," It's not a bit too far since oil&gas companies and car companies have an established history of doing very evil things.

> It's not a bit too far since oil&gas companies and car companies have an established history of doing very evil things. That does not mean they have done every specific evil thing they are accused of, such as sabotaging Tesla's factory.

They haven’t been accused in this case, so let’s not get ahead of ourselves.

Re: Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging sabotage' by employee

#327

Post by dkbrk » Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 7:30 AM UTC

acjacobson wrote: post #297

csours wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: How much are these shorts pushing UP the price of the stock?

Shorts in volume should do the opposite and act as a drag on the price because they represent shares sold today vs. in the future. That creates downward pressure on demand as the more people who sell today, fewer remain who are willing to buy at the same price.

That may be the case when the short volume is increasing, but at this point, with the stock price rising, traders should be looking to exit their short position.

If anything, with such a large volume short, a short squeeze is a serious likelihood in the near future.

Re: Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging sabotage' by employee

#328

Post by djur » Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 7:30 AM UTC

ricardobeat wrote: post #53

ucaetano wrote: post #34

We need to figure out if he was acting alone or with others at Tesla and if he was working with any outside organizations. As you know, there are a long list of organizations that want Tesla to die. These include Wall Street short-sellers, who have already lost billions of dollars and stand to lose a lot more. Then there are the oil & gas companies, the wealthiest industry in the world — they don't love the idea of T…

Fifteen years ago Echelon, NSA's email surveillance program, was considered a wild conspiracy on par with chemtrails. I think this kind of 'paranoia' is absolutely justified in today's world.

Longer ago than that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Committee_on_the_ECH...

ECHELON was reported on several times in the decades before that, and in much more credible outlets than chemtrails have ever been.

Re: Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging sabotage' by employee

#329

Post by supergirl » Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 7:32 AM UTC

jmts wrote: post #103

supergirl wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not saying he should be promoted now or before. I’m saying company culture is to blame for this or at least should be the first thing to review instead of blaming the employee immediately. what if the next person that doesn’t get promoted suicides?

You're conflating two issues here. The company is not responsible for the decisions of its employees relating to promotions. It is the employee that chooses to do something irrational for whatever reason. I agree that a company should reflect on any given incident to determine whether there internal factors that may have contributed to its outcome, however ensuring the personal lives of employees are in tip-top shape…

perhaps, tesla does indeed sound like a company that does the bare minimum required by law for its employees.

Re: Elon Musk emails employees about 'extensive and damaging sabotage' by employee

#330

Post by jakobegger » Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 7:36 AM UTC

jccooper wrote: post #219

twblalock wrote: post #70

I have no problem believing that a disgruntled employee sabotaged part of the production line. But I do have a problem believing that all of the problems since the Model 3 started production were caused by sabotage. I also have no problem believing that the disgruntled employee simply wanted to take revenge by sabotaging his/her employer -- that's not uncommon, and it should not be difficult to prove if it really hap…

> But I do have a problem believing that all of the problems since the Model 3 started production were caused by sabotage. So, uh, where exactly is that said? In the email, or anywhere for that matter? On my monitor, the email doesn't claim any influence on Model 3 production problems, much less "all". > suggesting that other forces are involved "Investigation" and "be extremely vigilant" are a mite different from "s…

Did you see this paragraph in Musk's email? It is pretty suggestive:

> As you know, there are a long list of organizations that want Tesla to die. These include Wall Street short-sellers, who have already lost billions of dollars and stand to lose a lot more. Then there are the oil & gas companies, the wealthiest industry in the world — they don't love the idea of Tesla advancing the progress of solar power & electric cars. Don't want to blow your mind, but rumor has it that those companies are sometimes not super nice. Then there are the multitude of big gas/diesel car company competitors. If they're willing to cheat so much about emissions, maybe they're willing to cheat in other ways?