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The mathematics of Magic: the Gathering (1999)

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Re: The mathematics of Magic: the Gathering (1999)

#61

Post by ufo »

stephengillie wrote: post #50
ufo wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

20 lands is a little low and is only appropriate if you have a very aggressive deck, with very few cards costing 3 or more mana. Conventional wisdom suggests going for around 40% lands. So 24ish lands for 60 card decks, 17ish for a 40 card deck.

My "blue bertha" decks were 40% to 45% lands. They were usually 100+ cards and consisted almost exclusively of 6+ casting cost creatures. These were only used for fun, mostly for other players to test their new decks against, never in any competition. Having more than 35% lands leads to the very mana flooding complained about in the root comment.

For a more detailed analysis on land percentages I'd refer to Frank Karsten (scroll down to the conclusion if you want just the numbers):

https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/how-many-lands-do-y...

With 35% lands (21/60) you are likely to end up mana-screwed (not enough lands) unless you build your deck to match the low land count. For a generic rule of thumb I think it is better to recommend a bit more lands than that.

Re: The mathematics of Magic: the Gathering (1999)

#62

Post by Qworg »

torben-friis wrote: post #55
stephengillie wrote: post #25

Some time ago, I tried to recreate a few basic Powershell commands as MTG cards.[0] Try/Catch [1] is one of my favorites - it's designed to "pre-counter" counterspells. [0] https://imgur.com/a/4sa6v [1] Reveal 2 cards from your hand. Choose 1 and pay its casting cost, then cast it as normal. If it fails to resolve, reset the game state to before the card was cast, then cast the second card as normal. https://i.imgur.…

>reset the game state to before the card was cast, then cast the second card as normal. https://i.imgur.com/E2cbdEo.png wouldn't that make the card useless? play cardA -> get countered ->state reset -> play card B -> B gets countered (because your opponent recovers the counter and untapped cards, due to the reset).

State reset isn't the right term. You want something like "Reveal two cards from your hand. Pay the casting cost for one. If it successfully resolves, exile the second card. If it does not, put the second card into play as if it were cast."

Re: The mathematics of Magic: the Gathering (1999)

#63

Post by gascan »

claudiulodro wrote: post #2

How is the MTG scene these days? I spent my childhood through high school obsessively playing the game, reading these sorts of breakdowns, and spending all my money. Then life got in the way and I haven't played in about 10 years. I remember Friday Night Magic used to be a wholesome way to spend a Friday evening, and you got a lot of entertainment for the $5 entry fee.

Before even worrying about what the game is like these days, I'd check out the local shops and see if you enjoy the company of the players in your area. The people you'll be spending your time with can make or break just about any hobby.

Re: The mathematics of Magic: the Gathering (1999)

#64

Post by ggggtez »

Qworg wrote: post #62
torben-friis wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>reset the game state to before the card was cast, then cast the second card as normal. https://i.imgur.com/E2cbdEo.png wouldn't that make the card useless? play cardA -> get countered ->state reset -> play card B -> B gets countered (because your opponent recovers the counter and untapped cards, due to the reset).

State reset isn't the right term. You want something like "Reveal two cards from your hand. Pay the casting cost for one. If it successfully resolves, exile the second card. If it does not, put the second card into play as if it were cast."

As it turns out, that also doesn't work because you can't just put something into play or it would skip some triggers and activate others it wouldn't normally. So the code is statefully different if it's in the "catch" instead of the "try"

Re: The mathematics of Magic: the Gathering (1999)

#65

Post by maskedSlacker »

GFischer wrote: post #52
xanamander wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the "spending all my money" part hasn't changed at all, in fact depending on the format you're interested in, that may be the defining characteristic of your experience. The wholesomeness of Friday Night Magic is highly dependent on what your LGS scene happens to be like though, that part hasn't changed too much. Magic's player base is bigger and more vibrant than it's ever been, and I think by most metrics Lim…

Well, I've read that it's actually gone a bit down from it's peak (some sketchy estimates put the active player base at 12 million, down from a 20 million peak), as games such as Hearthstone and fatigue eroded the playerbase, but Dominaria did bring some people back and it's on the upswing again - and with the new Hearthstone-like client they might get back to 20 million again.

Is MTG Arena the Hearthstone-like client?

Re: The mathematics of Magic: the Gathering (1999)

#66

Post by ggggtez »

stephengillie wrote: post #25

Some time ago, I tried to recreate a few basic Powershell commands as MTG cards.[0] Try/Catch [1] is one of my favorites - it's designed to "pre-counter" counterspells. [0] https://imgur.com/a/4sa6v [1] Reveal 2 cards from your hand. Choose 1 and pay its casting cost, then cast it as normal. If it fails to resolve, reset the game state to before the card was cast, then cast the second card as normal. https://i.imgur.…

You'd probably want for a try catch: Try catch (0) Instant Split Second

Exile a card from your hand. You may cast a card from your hand with CMC greater than or equal to the exiled card as though it had flash. That spell gains "if this spell is countered, you may play the exiled card without paying it's cost".

... Of course, it's not perfect but it's closer. Doing things like "reset the game state" are not defined in the rules very well, especially since the state wouldn't be the same (there are ways to make it illegal to undo). So that would just be a mess.

Re: The mathematics of Magic: the Gathering (1999)

#67

Post by empath75 »

overcast wrote: post #40
nlawalker wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever looked at Hearthstone? I tried it briefly, and I think it's got its share of problems but I thought that the way they designed around this was really cool. https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Mana covers it in detail, but the gist of it is that mana is generally an automatic thing, and it's granted per-turn at an increasing rate throughout the game, meaning that most games follow a natural power curve tha…

I've played daily since beta, and stopped about a year ago. The problem with Hearthstone is that they traded mana RNG for effect RNG. The fate of every match revolves around how well a card randomly targets an enemy. Far too much is decided by a coin toss in that game, because it makes for funny youtube videos.

They’ve gotten rid of most of the really rng effects and the worst offenders ever where in the game when it started (ragnaros and sylvannas).

Re: The mathematics of Magic: the Gathering (1999)

#68

Post by ubernostrum »

digitalzombie wrote: post #27
claudiulodro wrote: post #2

How is the MTG scene these days? I spent my childhood through high school obsessively playing the game, reading these sorts of breakdowns, and spending all my money. Then life got in the way and I haven't played in about 10 years. I remember Friday Night Magic used to be a wholesome way to spend a Friday evening, and you got a lot of entertainment for the $5 entry fee.

I think it's mostly online. Magic stopped doing big convention at LA convention for new set release. They stop releasing or giving promo cards they only give foil token cards now. It doesn't seem like they supporting hobbyshop as much. Standard is not the most popular format. It seems like Modern is their most popular since cards are expensive now. It also seem like they're pushing for online more they've release a n…

Magic stopped doing big convention at LA convention for new set release.

Prerelease events moved from regional events at huge convention centers, to store-level, in a bid to help stores.

They stop releasing or giving promo cards they only give foil token cards now.

FNM promos are back to being cards, not tokens, and you still get a promo at prerelease, promo cards as prizes or for participation at certain events, a promo for buying a box of the new set from your local shop, etc.

It doesn't seem like they supporting hobbyshop as much.

A number of changes, including prereleases, PPTQs, exclusive products, exclusive promos, all are geared toward getting people into their local game shop since that's the only place to get those things initially.

Re: The mathematics of Magic: the Gathering (1999)

#69

Post by bigger_cheese »

uxp100 wrote: post #43
shiado wrote: post #14

I played Magic briefly as a teen and the thing that bothered me the most was how mana worked and the tendency to either get mana flooded or mana screwed. I even played a custom format with friends where you separated your deck and your mana into two decks and drew one from each every turn. It made the game much more enjoyable and consistent.

The more I play magic, the more I like the mana system, actually. It's very frustrating occasionally, but it usually is a message to me that I need to change my deckbuilding, add more filtering, card advantage, etc.

I agree I like that you have to take into account the manabase when you design a deck it adds an additional constraint. It also makes mana denial a valid strategy.

My favorite deck of all time (Goblins) is built around abusing Wasteland and Rishadan Port to lock down my opponents manabase.

Re: The mathematics of Magic: the Gathering (1999)

#70

Post by dragontamer »

brandnewlow wrote: post #19
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that affects both players equally, as in general the luck factor. My experience is that while you might lose a few games stupidly because of mana screw/flood, in the long run luck balances out and skill makes the difference.

It's secretly a feature, not a bug. Due to mana screw, even the best players lose 30-40% of the time.

Furthermore, good players can play with probabilities to lead to more consistent results.

For example, try not to play two colors equally. Instead, "skew" colors in one side. Play 75% green and 25% red for example, which tends to be more consistent than a 50/50 split. Furthermore, seeing an opening hand of say all reds (when you know its your "minor color") gives you the opportunity to mulligan for a better hand before the game even starts.

IMO, these sorts of decisions are what makes you a better player. Its a small probability with regards to mana-screw or mana-flooding, but these little things help over the long run.

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