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Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

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Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#111

Post by dpark »

chillingeffect wrote: post #72
dpark wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet here you are making a call on a cell phone. Turning off location services does not make your phone invisible on the cell network. Your provider knows with fair accuracy where your phone is at all times that it has service (and often even when it does not).

It's not always that great accuracy. it's not logged continuously. And it's not readily available to anyone who wants it. And we are usually surrounded by others so things can't always be pinpointed to an individual. Just because something is technically possible with a lot of preparation, doesn't make it a continuously usable source of information, especially in retrospect. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be wary, bu…

> It's not always that great accuracy.

Okay. It'll be high accuracy when you give the exact location to the dispatcher, though. Or are you using 911 for non-emergency calls? Keeping your location secret from the dispatcher in an emergency essentially means you're preventing an appropriate emergency response.

> it's not logged continuously.

Sure about that?

> And it's not readily available to anyone who wants it.

No change. Apple has not proposed posting your location on Twitter when you dial 911.

> And we are usually surrounded by others so things can't always be pinpointed to an individual.

Uh. You are wildly incorrect. Your cellphone is transmitting its location all the time. Assuming it can reasonably be called your cellphone, that location is definitely pinpointed to an individual.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#112

Post by gregsadetsky »

bovine3dom wrote: post #108
gregsadetsky wrote: post #93

This is an extraordinarily important and interesting “space” ripe for innovation. A few weeks ago, I was awarded one of the highest civilian public awards from the Commandant of the US Coast Guard in DC for my volunteer web mapping work during Harvey. That work helped coordinate 700 helicopter sorties and save 1700 lives. I’ve been thinking — and talking with Emergency Responders — about what an up to date 911 would…

There's some work in this area already, e.g. https://www.goodsamapp.org/ .

Thanks for the link. I think that this needs to be on mobile OS level to be effective. The good news is that there are only 2 major ones.

See https://crisisresponse.google/emergencylocationservice/ and the 112 (the EU’s 911) work on AML. That service, piggybacking on SMS to send location, is supported by both Android and iOS but is only available in a few countries.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#113

Post by bungie4 »

gregsadetsky wrote: post #93

This is an extraordinarily important and interesting “space” ripe for innovation. A few weeks ago, I was awarded one of the highest civilian public awards from the Commandant of the US Coast Guard in DC for my volunteer web mapping work during Harvey. That work helped coordinate 700 helicopter sorties and save 1700 lives. I’ve been thinking — and talking with Emergency Responders — about what an up to date 911 would…

Yup. But the issue is a financial one, not a technological one. All manner of things can be accomplished at the origin. But all the other links in the chain must have access to the companion technology (read money). This is just not available on a widespread basis. Then, you have issues of adoption, and, competing services and standards.

We are experiencing this very thing with regards to Fire dispatch, with all manner of fireman 'apps'. All of which are different with different protocols. So much so, that we now refuse to support any of them.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#114

Post by dpark »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #98
dpark wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is, but everyone has been avoiding taxes, so here we are with a supposedly first world country with third world infrastructure. Hence, my suggestion. Your argument is that Apple doesn't pay taxes, so they should be taxed to cover the cost of 911 upgrades. If Apple is so good at "avoiding taxes", how would you possibly make them pay for the 911 upgrades anyway? If you are capable of crafting such an inescapable t…

No. My argument was it would be helpful if Apple voluntarily subsidized rural 911 call center upgrades to support the life critical feature they added to their devices. You say “cash grab”, I say “corporate responsibility”.

So Apple builds a feature that could potentially save lives. But they are lacking "corporate responsibility" because they aren't also directly funding emergency call center upgrades nationwide.

This viewpoint makes me sad. It's like someone built a house for a homeless family and then they get criticized for not covering the cost of utilities for the lifetime of the house.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#115

Post by genericone »

dpark wrote: post #69
toomuchtodo wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because without the call center support, their marketing of it as a feature in iOS 12 is a moot point. “Look at this awesome life saving feature that only works in wealthy parts of the US!”

I don't grasp this logic. Apple builds a feature to help with 911 services so they should fund 911 services? Apple also implemented Amber Alert support. Should they fund the Amber Alert system, too? Aren't emergency services pretty clearly the government's job? You already pay a fee on your cell bill specifically to cover the cost of 911 services to your local and state governments.

Let us not forget what happened when the convenience of plastics hit the markets, the trash collection sector of the government was inundated with material that it never had to deal with before, in quantities that the developed countries of the world now regret. City and county trash, which is considered the government's job, was utterly and forever ruined by plastic.

Consumers loved plastics, stores loved plastics, everybody loved plastics when it arrived because it was a tremendous improvement upon what existed before, which was mainly cardboard, paper, and glass containers. But trash companies had NO way to handle the quantities other than with landfills. The companies that used the most plastics saw the writing on the wall, they were going to be charged tremendous amounts for the plastic they were putting out. This is what created the recycling programs as we know it: "In order to avoid regulation and the banning of plastic products they used, the beverage and packaging industry pushed municipal recycling programs."[1] Impressive marketing work by pepsi/coke/fritolay to pass the buck.

Apple isn't doing the same thing, because they aren't literally trashing the world, this 911 feature does not create anywhere near such a negative externality, but to say that "we already pay our government for this" doesn't mean that the the corporation is off the hook, "we did our part, now you handle the 99% of effort and costs of getting this feature we are promoting to work, oh and you will need to assume the blame if and when things don't work". I don't think it should work that way...

[1]: https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2015/07/recycling-my...

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#116

Post by jgh »

gregsadetsky wrote: post #93

This is an extraordinarily important and interesting “space” ripe for innovation. A few weeks ago, I was awarded one of the highest civilian public awards from the Commandant of the US Coast Guard in DC for my volunteer web mapping work during Harvey. That work helped coordinate 700 helicopter sorties and save 1700 lives. I’ve been thinking — and talking with Emergency Responders — about what an up to date 911 would…

I worked on 911 reporting software oh 6 or 7 years ago now, and I seem to remember talk about allowing SMS and MMS along with live-streamed video coming from mobile phones to the PSAPs ... but I guess there hasn't been much movement on that.

I think the trouble you'll run into is the various agencies involved (since it's been quite a while I don't really remember), e.g. the Sheriff's departments run the PSAPs and I believe the State requires reporting for funding. And since these are government contracts you have to deal with getting those contracts and whatever contracts they already have with incumbents.

Not only that but there's a ton of different equipment out there, and everybody is using different stuff.

Anyway not saying it can't be done and that it can't be done efficiently (because believe me it can), but it's 100% government so you're gonna need some patience, good sales guys, and lobbyists.

edit: congrats on the award BTW, that sounds like you did some great work.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#117

Post by dpark »

Benjammer wrote: post #105
dpark wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're saying that because Apple enables a feature that helps 911, they should cover he costs of 911 service. What this implies is that everyone should do the bare minimum required by law, because if they do anything more they should expect to shoulder billions in infrastructure costs that would otherwise be correctly carried by the government. > If richer areas see benefits from this and start to drop the amount the…

>This makes no sense. Welcome to the world of government services, where it's literally, by definition, a different place than the capitalist business world. >because Apple enables a feature that helps 911, they should cover he costs of 911 service. Yes, there are services where our society has decided that the public government is more appropriate to manage that service, generally because competition motives would c…

This has nothing to with government services and everything to do with the fact that you are describing a situation that is nonsensical.

> If Apple is going to wade into one of these areas, they need to play by the rules of that public service, they can't just treat it like another business metric to compete with.

Apple is not attempting to get in the business of running 911 call centers. They're sending an extra bit of data that call centers can choose to access. That's all. There is no "private competition" with the public service. This is no different than Apple supporting the Amber Alert system or AT&T providing your location to 911 services when they are able to.

> Yes, do you understand how budgeting works in government?

Do you? You're proposing that urban centers will see a drop in cost for 911 support (an outcome which by the way would be nice but is not supported by anything other than wild guesswork on your part) and then rural areas who have not experienced a drop in cost will lower their own budgets for some random reason.

Why do imagine Bumblefuck, Arkansas is looking at New York City's 911 costs instead of their own?

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#118

Post by toomuchtodo »

dpark wrote: post #114
toomuchtodo wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. My argument was it would be helpful if Apple voluntarily subsidized rural 911 call center upgrades to support the life critical feature they added to their devices. You say “cash grab”, I say “corporate responsibility”.

So Apple builds a feature that could potentially save lives. But they are lacking "corporate responsibility" because they aren't also directly funding emergency call center upgrades nationwide. This viewpoint makes me sad. It's like someone built a house for a homeless family and then they get criticized for not covering the cost of utilities for the lifetime of the house.

> This viewpoint makes me sad. It's like someone built a house for a homeless family and then they get criticized for not covering the cost of utilities for the lifetime of the house.

Likewise, I see it as handing someone a good or service they desperately need with no thought to the recurring costs involved. Just because you believe you've done a good deed doesn't mean you've necessarily helped (see food aid in Africa that has ruined their ag markets).

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#119

Post by gregsadetsky »

jgh wrote: post #116
gregsadetsky wrote: post #93

This is an extraordinarily important and interesting “space” ripe for innovation. A few weeks ago, I was awarded one of the highest civilian public awards from the Commandant of the US Coast Guard in DC for my volunteer web mapping work during Harvey. That work helped coordinate 700 helicopter sorties and save 1700 lives. I’ve been thinking — and talking with Emergency Responders — about what an up to date 911 would…

I worked on 911 reporting software oh 6 or 7 years ago now, and I seem to remember talk about allowing SMS and MMS along with live-streamed video coming from mobile phones to the PSAPs ... but I guess there hasn't been much movement on that. I think the trouble you'll run into is the various agencies involved (since it's been quite a while I don't really remember), e.g. the Sheriff's departments run the PSAPs and I b…

I’d love to talk more if you can. Email in my profile.

My plan is to do this as a nonprofit. Build great mapping tools and offer them for free to all worldwide emergency responders.

PSAPs have a role in this, of course, but I am also wondering how much smartphone emergency requests could be routed directly to responders. Think of the Coast Guard’s VHF 16 emergency channel. It doesn’t go to 911 — it goes straight to the Coast Guard.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#120

Post by gregsadetsky »

bungie4 wrote: post #113
gregsadetsky wrote: post #93

This is an extraordinarily important and interesting “space” ripe for innovation. A few weeks ago, I was awarded one of the highest civilian public awards from the Commandant of the US Coast Guard in DC for my volunteer web mapping work during Harvey. That work helped coordinate 700 helicopter sorties and save 1700 lives. I’ve been thinking — and talking with Emergency Responders — about what an up to date 911 would…

Yup. But the issue is a financial one, not a technological one. All manner of things can be accomplished at the origin. But all the other links in the chain must have access to the companion technology (read money). This is just not available on a widespread basis. Then, you have issues of adoption, and, competing services and standards. We are experiencing this very thing with regards to Fire dispatch, with all mann…

I’d love to talk more, if you can. My email in my profile.

As stated in a comment above, I think that this should be a global nonprofit. Mapping tools should be made for free to emergency responders. That’s one way to go around the financial question.

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