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Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

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Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#71

Post by chillingeffect »

Rotten194 wrote: post #42
vxNsr wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you just don't want your location ever being sent to a gov agency no matter your predicament.

The point of 911 is to have emergency responders come to your location. If you don't want emergency responders to come to your location, you shouldn't be calling 911, full stop.

> full stop.

Maybe your brain finds it convenient to shut off there, but not for many of us. We have experience reporting crime but don't want to be identified because the rest of the criminal's cronies could turn on us.

Without knowing how our information travels once it leaves our hands, retaliation from crooked government organizations, gangs, small time mobs, abusive family members is all too possible. And we all know how information wants to travel.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#72

Post by chillingeffect »

dpark wrote: post #33
vxNsr wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you just don't want your location ever being sent to a gov agency no matter your predicament.

And yet here you are making a call on a cell phone. Turning off location services does not make your phone invisible on the cell network. Your provider knows with fair accuracy where your phone is at all times that it has service (and often even when it does not).

It's not always that great accuracy. it's not logged continuously. And it's not readily available to anyone who wants it. And we are usually surrounded by others so things can't always be pinpointed to an individual.

Just because something is technically possible with a lot of preparation, doesn't make it a continuously usable source of information, especially in retrospect. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be wary, but we shouldn't practice all-or-nothing thinking.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#73

Post by [deleted] »

dpark wrote: post #70
rainbowmverse wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine the call is from a gay bar (or the vicinity). The data leaks. Now coworkers know, none of them are okay with it (even if they never confirm their assumptions), and there are no legal protections when they get fired. There are a lot of non-obvious ways seemingly-innocent data can harm marginalized groups.

You are calling 911. The purpose of the call is specifically to ask the government to send someone to your location.

[deleted]

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#74

Post by abritinthebay »

Rotten194 wrote: post #34
toomuchtodo wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d like to see Apple help subsidize the cost of upgrading the software required in rural emergency call centers if it’s required to interoperate with this new feature (perhaps coming out of their corporate social responsibility budget).

maybe apple could actually pay taxes and those could be used for the same benefit ;)

Apple does pay taxes. Want them to pay more? Vote.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#75

Post by toomuchtodo »

dpark wrote: post #69
toomuchtodo wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because without the call center support, their marketing of it as a feature in iOS 12 is a moot point. “Look at this awesome life saving feature that only works in wealthy parts of the US!”

I don't grasp this logic. Apple builds a feature to help with 911 services so they should fund 911 services? Apple also implemented Amber Alert support. Should they fund the Amber Alert system, too? Aren't emergency services pretty clearly the government's job? You already pay a fee on your cell bill specifically to cover the cost of 911 services to your local and state governments.

Edit: Benjammer’s response is superior to mine.

Yes, large device manufacturers should help fund the infrastructure they build product support into their products for. You might disagree with my opinion, but I don’t see the opinion as being wildly out of line.

If Apple doesn’t fund it, and per mobile line 911 taxes don’t cover it, everyone’s taxes have to go up to support Apples enhanced feature and the marketing goodwill they’ll receive. Does that seem fair?

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#76

Post by rainbowmverse »

dpark wrote: post #70
rainbowmverse wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine the call is from a gay bar (or the vicinity). The data leaks. Now coworkers know, none of them are okay with it (even if they never confirm their assumptions), and there are no legal protections when they get fired. There are a lot of non-obvious ways seemingly-innocent data can harm marginalized groups.

You are calling 911. The purpose of the call is specifically to ask the government to send someone to your location.

>> "You are calling 911. The purpose of the call is specifically to ask the government to send someone to your location."

Correct. I'm not asking the private company "RapidSOS" to relay my location to the government. The endless string of leaks makes me distrust companies with data. Every party I depend on having good security is a new party that might screw up, or intentionally misuse the data.

The involuntary risk surface area is already large enough.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#77

Post by 0xffff2 »

Rotten194 wrote: post #42
vxNsr wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you just don't want your location ever being sent to a gov agency no matter your predicament.

The point of 911 is to have emergency responders come to your location. If you don't want emergency responders to come to your location, you shouldn't be calling 911, full stop.

The point of 911 is to have emergency responders come to a location. Said location is not necessarily your location.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#78

Post by josefresco »

ForrestN wrote: post #54
josefresco wrote: post #45

I'm reading almost near universal praise. Isn't this essentially a "back door" to location services, only accessible to law enforcement? Sounds ... familiar. It gets worse/better(?) Apple's upcoming 911 feature relies on technology from RapidSOS, a New York startup. The approach developed by Apple and RapidSOS sends location data from an iPhone to a "clearinghouse" accessible to emergency calling centers. Only the 91…

If the text you quoted is accurate, the data is only accessible to emergency calling centers, so no, unless they are lying neither company can see your location. Perhaps it’s encrypted, a bit like sending an iMessage to the 9/11 dispatcher, or some other means of anonymization is used.

the data is only accessible to emergency calling centers

This same argument is use to justify why we shouldn't allow encryption back doors. The reasons include: access will leak, law enforcement cannot be trusted.

I don't see anything in this announcement that addresses those concerns.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#79

Post by dpark »

rainbowmverse wrote: post #76
dpark wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are calling 911. The purpose of the call is specifically to ask the government to send someone to your location.

>> "You are calling 911. The purpose of the call is specifically to ask the government to send someone to your location." Correct. I'm not asking the private company "RapidSOS" to relay my location to the government. The endless string of leaks makes me distrust companies with data. Every party I depend on having good security is a new party that might screw up, or intentionally misuse the data. The involuntary risk…

This thread started because someone was concerned that OMG, law enforcement might actually get the location info that you're trying to send them.

If your concern is specifically about the 3rd party getting the data because they're acting as intermediary, I can understand that. I don't agree, but understand.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#80

Post by Benjammer »

dpark wrote: post #69
toomuchtodo wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because without the call center support, their marketing of it as a feature in iOS 12 is a moot point. “Look at this awesome life saving feature that only works in wealthy parts of the US!”

I don't grasp this logic. Apple builds a feature to help with 911 services so they should fund 911 services? Apple also implemented Amber Alert support. Should they fund the Amber Alert system, too? Aren't emergency services pretty clearly the government's job? You already pay a fee on your cell bill specifically to cover the cost of 911 services to your local and state governments.

Apple is building a feature that will help them maintain their image and gain more user trust and loyalty. Government services aren't capitalist companies, their job is to efficiently allocate budget, not to "out-compete" anyone.

If Apple starts subsidizing the cost of modern 911 (and building a feature into their mobile operating system to make 911 more accessible is surely subsidizing the cost of upgrading failing public safety infrastructure), they need to bear some responsibility for the system as a whole.

If richer areas see benefits from this and start to drop the amount they spend on something like a private, enterprise mobile 911 product, then other departments are going to follow suit, and suddenly you have less 911 support in poorer/more rural areas because that's where fewer people have iPhones, yet departments are still following national budgeting/spending trends.

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