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Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

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Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#21

Post by tzahola »

emptybits wrote: post #14

Will it be possible to make an anonymous 911 call? There can be scenarios, I think, where we (society) do not want to deter someone from reporting an emergency due to fear of being identified. Off the top of my head, consider a situation involving organized crime taking place, where call centre staff (or law enforcement) may be compelled to leak the identity of a witness.

There's no such thing as an anonymous cellphone call. Period.

If you want to report organized crime that involves the upper echelons of power, don't use cellphones at all.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#22

Post by jakebasile »

emptybits wrote: post #14

Will it be possible to make an anonymous 911 call? There can be scenarios, I think, where we (society) do not want to deter someone from reporting an emergency due to fear of being identified. Off the top of my head, consider a situation involving organized crime taking place, where call centre staff (or law enforcement) may be compelled to leak the identity of a witness.

I don't think it's possible to make an anonymous 911 call unless you're using a public phone. I think this is ok, since 911 is specifically for emergencies and you generally want the police/EMS to know where you are immediately since seconds can count. I think of it a bit like implied consent in first aid: by calling 911 you are inherently consenting for your location to be shared since it is likely you are in some form of distress requiring that information.

You're mentioning things like organized crime reporting, which are not emergencies. In that case, I'd expect someone to talk to someone in the police department in person, or through an intermediary lawyer - not 911.

edit: added the implied consent thought

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#23

Post by laumars »

emptybits wrote: post #14

Will it be possible to make an anonymous 911 call? There can be scenarios, I think, where we (society) do not want to deter someone from reporting an emergency due to fear of being identified. Off the top of my head, consider a situation involving organized crime taking place, where call centre staff (or law enforcement) may be compelled to leak the identity of a witness.

If it is a 911 call then I would imagine the location of the call would always be required to help with the emergency services. I couldn't see that giving away a persons identity as you would naturally expect the 911 call to be the same proximity as the incident being reported.

For other types of reports where you have the luxury of calling from an alternative location, you might call the local police or other services rather than the national emergency number (or at least that is how the emergency services are designed to operate in the UK)

However if anonymity is your primary concern then you're much better off using a burner or pay phone rather than your primary handset - regardless of the number you choose to dial.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#25

Post by vxNsr »

bitL wrote: post #19
emptybits wrote: post #14

Will it be possible to make an anonymous 911 call? There can be scenarios, I think, where we (society) do not want to deter someone from reporting an emergency due to fear of being identified. Off the top of my head, consider a situation involving organized crime taking place, where call centre staff (or law enforcement) may be compelled to leak the identity of a witness.

Get one of those credit card-sized phones like AIEK just for 911? They should be able to call 911 even without SIM card.

Right, so that's not even remotely a plausible solution for the OPs senario.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#26

Post by politician »

abtinf wrote: post #12
Drakim wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why shouldn't all your traffic, location data, and thoughts be archived for future use? Maybe in 30 years we figure out you are one of the undesirables of society, and we'll have an easy time getting rid of you and your kind. It's a great boon for society to preserve all data.

That is not the context of this news. The context here is recording pertinent information when a person chooses to request emergency law enforcement, medical, and fire services.

What's happening here is the normalization of the practice of supplying real-time location information of devices to various government agents by way of an "unassailable good".

This is a great feature given 911's notoriously poor ability to locate mobile callers, but let's be real: this shifts the Overton window.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#27

Post by tzahola »

vxNsr wrote: post #20
abtinf wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what circumstances would you want to contact 911 but not reveal your location?

Maybe you just don't want your location ever being sent to a gov agency no matter your predicament.

Carriers know your approximate location all the time, even without this feature. If you don't want to be tracked, you must pull out your SIM card.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#28

Post by Rjevski »

abtinf wrote: post #9
walterbell wrote: post #4

For anyone with the iOS12 beta, is there an opt-out for this system service in the Privacy -> Location Services -> System Services list? What happens if "Location Services" has been disabled by MDM policy, or was never enabled since the device was setup? On a new iOS11 device, if you decline to enable Location Services during setup, it stays disabled. Once enabled, it can no longer be disabled, and the system service…

In what circumstances would you want to contact 911 but not reveal your location?

There might be cases where a criminal would want to call 911 on a victim (possibly collateral damage of their crime).

Not saying this happens, but the only way it could happen is if the guy calling has some guarantee of not being identified.

I'd much prefer having a criminal get away and saving a life thanks to the 911 call than him getting away and letting someone die because he had no way to call 911 anonymously without disclosing his device's location.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#29

Post by rainbowmverse »

abtinf wrote: post #12
Drakim wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why shouldn't all your traffic, location data, and thoughts be archived for future use? Maybe in 30 years we figure out you are one of the undesirables of society, and we'll have an easy time getting rid of you and your kind. It's a great boon for society to preserve all data.

That is not the context of this news. The context here is recording pertinent information when a person chooses to request emergency law enforcement, medical, and fire services.

Imagine the call is from a gay bar (or the vicinity). The data leaks. Now coworkers know, none of them are okay with it (even if they never confirm their assumptions), and there are no legal protections when they get fired.

There are a lot of non-obvious ways seemingly-innocent data can harm marginalized groups.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#30

Post by dharmab »

emptybits wrote: post #14

Will it be possible to make an anonymous 911 call? There can be scenarios, I think, where we (society) do not want to deter someone from reporting an emergency due to fear of being identified. Off the top of my head, consider a situation involving organized crime taking place, where call centre staff (or law enforcement) may be compelled to leak the identity of a witness.

The scenario in your example is served by anonymous tip lines, not by 911. 911 is for immediate emergencies, usually involving imminent danger.
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