The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble • Hacker News Board

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#51

Post by seanmcdirmid » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 9:38 AM UTC

lev99 wrote: post #49

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since China lacks real elections, the only way for a Chinese citizen to hold their government accountable is to protest or revolt. In the west, citizens can simply “vote the turkeys out”, which, by just rendering the politician unemployed, is less violent and often results in peaceful transitions. The definition of “fear” is then just very different.

Democracy doesn't guarantee peaceful transfer of power. The absence of democracy does not guarantee violent transfer of power.

There is a difference between “garauntee” and “in general”. Concrete might not shatter during an earthquake, but it is definitely more likely to than wood or steel (which can bend). Compared to a democracy, the CCP is like concrete: hard and strong but with a catastrophic breaking point.

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#52

Post by seanmcdirmid » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 9:42 AM UTC

cbzbc wrote: post #46

07d046 wrote: post #21

I've just started reading Silent Invasian: China's Influence in Australia, which made headlines around the world last year when its original publisher decided not to publish it out of fear of what the Chinese Communist Party and its proxies in Australia would react. That China has this sort of influence (see also all the airlines and hotels and other companies that bent over backwards to apologise for listing China a…

Remember the 80s when the Japanese were going to take over the world, and pulp novelists turned out airport thrillers in which the villain was a Japanese businessman?

Actually no. I remember Japan seen as great going to take over the world, but the closest I ever saw of a Japanese villain was some movie about a bad boss at a car factory.

Japan was already a strong US (and western) ally in the 1980s at any rate.

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#53

Post by coldtea » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 9:56 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #47

coldtea wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You won’t find many Economist articles going easy on the UK or USA. On the contrary, I find Economist playing the anglosaxon party line in almost any international issue.

Do you read the economist often? If you go to the current issue, how many negative articles about the USA and UK can you count? It ain’t zero, heck, just by the counts alone it is easy to argue that the economist is softer on China than it is on the UK and USA.

>If you go to the current issue, how many negative articles about the USA and UK can you count?

Many, that criticize those countries from the perspective of what the power elites of those same countries want them to do.

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#54

Post by mseebach » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 10:04 AM UTC

dalbasal wrote: post #19

saagarjha wrote: post #3

I'd argue that a government is supposed to fear its citizens. It's just not supposed to censor them and take away their rights to quell that fear: rather, it should hold itself accountable and not do things that would cause resentment.

That's (to my ears) a very American sentiment. I'd say the closest thing we have in Europe would be found in France. It also carries a soft but audible 18th century, liberal resonance. Yous really are sister republics. Heh. Anyway... I disagree (amicably). I think this is a terrible state of affairs. A fearful regime is a dangerous one. Fear is the enemy of "us" and this is degenerative to a republic, and oppressive…

I you're taking "fear" slightly too literally for the purposes of this idea.

In a way, in the extreme, it is literal: in a healthy democracy, the citizens are so comfortable in their sovereignty that they would be willing as a last resort to forcibly, physically remove a despotic leader. But healthy democracies also have strong institutions that will check such a leader and eventually replace him peacefully - so this fear is mostly theoretical.

In the more symbolic sense, the "fear" is simply to be understood as the citizens having the absolute power to get rid of their leaders through the democratic process. If you want to be a leader, and if you want to stay in office, you basically have to keep the people happy (very broadly speaking, of course), there are no shortcuts in the long run for this. It's "fear" in the sense of "fearing the next election".

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#55

Post by dalbasal » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 10:05 AM UTC

slavik81 wrote: post #40

dalbasal wrote: post #22

This is a tangent, but I noticed how this line feels like it (almost) requires no further support: " liberal democracy’s current ills have opened an.. " While I'm not disagreeing, just don't recall reading a decent narration on what exactly is going on. What are liberal democracies' current ills? Did we agree on a list, when I wasn't looking?

It makes more sense in context of the physical newspaper where you will usually see all their articles, in addition to the theme on the cover. They covered that in an article, "After decades of triumph, democracy is losing ground" — https://www.economist.com/international/2018/06/16/after-dec...

Oh cheers. That does make a lot more sense.

I was slightly disconcerted that the Economist would just throw in that line, as a matter of trivial fact. It's like a major discussion concluded without my knowledge.

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#56

Post by candiodari » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 10:15 AM UTC

growlist wrote: post #37

blattimwind wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Euro has failed? That's news to me.

Unemployment is at high levels in several eurozone countries, and this is blamed by some on the euro, and if you consider this a fair assessment and are unemployed I suppose you might think the euro has failed for you.

And if you were an elderly Greek, and saw your (not very generous to begin with by Eurozone norms) pension cut by 75% in order to save some German banks ? Would you consider that "failed" assessment to be fair ?

Investors, by contrast, might say that despite all the damage done to Eurozone economies (most, but of course, not all, Eurozone economies, ie. the PIIGS), European banks are ... well "teetering on the edge of bankruptcy" is perhaps not a fair assessment, but they're ~90% closer to it than they were at the beginning of the Euro project.

Savers, bond investors, ... have similar complaints : they haven't been able to invest productively.

And for what ? Even if they were altruistic : GDP hasn't exactly taken off in the Eurozone, in fact quite the opposite. Even Germany's GDP evolution can at best be referred to as "not a disaster". Greece's would be far beyond "catastrophe", and everyone else is in between.

But yes, 25 year olds who have a stable job find travel easier (of course, that's because the economic misery of others makes travel cheaper, otherwise the Euro would just have made it more obvious that they couldn't travel)

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#57

Post by candiodari » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 10:21 AM UTC

dalbasal wrote: post #35

orwin wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd say the closest thing we have in Europe would be found in France I don't know about other countries, but you're right, some Frenchmen want the government to fear them, because it's one way to keep the power in check. We also have a really strong executive power who kinda own legislative rights and have control over a tiny bit of the judiciary system, so it's understandable.

:) I won't pretend I understand the nuances but to us it seems almost comical. Train schedule changes, and people are upset? Fires will be lit.

Oh come on, people in France are upset because [1], and especially given his election platform that's more than understandable imho.

I mean, given who Macron was this was entirely predictable, but many people believed he'd changed. For what reason ... I cannot fathom. But then again, Australia did essentially the same: an ex-Goldman Sachs vice president (with half his immediate family still GS VPs) will change the country to be more fair ! Oh wait ... he didn't. Quite the opposite in fact. Cue complete and total amazement.

[1] https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-labor-reform-5-key-po...

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#58

Post by zeth___ » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 10:29 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #47

coldtea wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You won’t find many Economist articles going easy on the UK or USA. On the contrary, I find Economist playing the anglosaxon party line in almost any international issue.

Do you read the economist often? If you go to the current issue, how many negative articles about the USA and UK can you count? It ain’t zero, heck, just by the counts alone it is easy to argue that the economist is softer on China than it is on the UK and USA.

You should read Pravda. It criticized the USSR quite often too.

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#59

Post by growlist » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 10:31 AM UTC

candiodari wrote: post #56

growlist wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unemployment is at high levels in several eurozone countries, and this is blamed by some on the euro, and if you consider this a fair assessment and are unemployed I suppose you might think the euro has failed for you.

And if you were an elderly Greek, and saw your (not very generous to begin with by Eurozone norms) pension cut by 75% in order to save some German banks ? Would you consider that "failed" assessment to be fair ? Investors, by contrast, might say that despite all the damage done to Eurozone economies (most, but of course, not all, Eurozone economies, ie. the PIIGS), European banks are ... well "teetering on the edge o…

You misinterpret me - I think this unemployment problem is a scandalous waste of potential.

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#60

Post by dalbasal » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 10:34 AM UTC

mseebach wrote: post #54

dalbasal wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's (to my ears) a very American sentiment. I'd say the closest thing we have in Europe would be found in France. It also carries a soft but audible 18th century, liberal resonance. Yous really are sister republics. Heh. Anyway... I disagree (amicably). I think this is a terrible state of affairs. A fearful regime is a dangerous one. Fear is the enemy of "us" and this is degenerative to a republic, and oppressive…

I you're taking "fear" slightly too literally for the purposes of this idea. In a way, in the extreme, it is literal: in a healthy democracy, the citizens are so comfortable in their sovereignty that they would be willing as a last resort to forcibly, physically remove a despotic leader. But healthy democracies also have strong institutions that will check such a leader and eventually replace him peacefully - so this…

I agree the symbolic elements are important, but it often seems (from my distant perspective) like fairly blunt symbolism. Americans brandish muskets, and challenge the government to come get them. The French start building barricades.