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The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

economist.com

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Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#31

Post by sgift »

throw8185 wrote: post #23
geowwy wrote: post #13

This seems to be the key paragraph: > A confident power permits debate to flourish, unthreatened by ideas; a fearful > one will seek to manipulate or shut it down. The party is increasingly obliged > to try to replicate its domestic censorship on a global scale, to suppress > views of China that the party does not like, wherever they are manifested. > Sustained investment in propaganda in Chinese-language media and i…

This is a good point. I definitely support free speech (that should go without saying), but it seems to be spread with a fervor not unlike how Christianity was spread during colonization. For example, is the quality of life in Mexico--with free speech and democracy--better than one like Singapore or even China? There are also different ideals of free speech too. The US version is very different from the European vers…

Mexico doesn't have free speech in practice: If you speak out against the wrong people you get killed by the cartels. Also, we don't know what the quality of life in China is, because ... you cannot talk about things which are critical of the government.

That is technically correct, but being allowed to criticize the government without getting send to a prison seems to be a common denominator, so we could start with that.

That assumes you cannot work on free speech and "other steps" at the same time. Free speech is so easy, blocking it costs more resources than just accepting it. These resources could be used for "other steps", so blocking free speech is detrimental to them.

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#32

Post by blattimwind »

simonh wrote: post #28
dalbasal wrote: post #22

This is a tangent, but I noticed how this line feels like it (almost) requires no further support: " liberal democracy’s current ills have opened an.. " While I'm not disagreeing, just don't recall reading a decent narration on what exactly is going on. What are liberal democracies' current ills? Did we agree on a list, when I wasn't looking?

There are some trends in current international relations that are worrying for many people who support liberal democratic principles. The failure of the Euro, which was a landmark liberal project. The Brexit vote in Britain. American protectionism. Russian political interference and military aggression. China's renewed suppression of individual liberties and its moves to export it's totalitarian and censorious princi…

The Euro has failed? That's news to me.

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#33

Post by Emma_Goldman »

This is a rather anemic entry in a 100-year-old genre. Westerners have been doom-mongering about the rise of China since at least the Boxer Rebellion.

The FT ran a more informative and sober piece a week or two ago, on China's gambit to create a global energy network:

https://www.ft.com/content/bdc31f94-68aa-11e8-b6eb-4acfcfb08...

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#34

Post by coldtea »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #30
coldtea wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny how pundits from countries that have (and are still doing) all those things, point the finger at other countries for doing the same (and, internationally, far less). "aggression in the South China Sea"? The US has invaded 3+ countries in the last 20 years producing as much failed states. Is it just a "big" and not a "great" power?

Pundits are more than happy to criticize their own countries or (in this case) their allies. You won’t find many Economist articles going easy on the UK or USA. They are just giving China equal treatment, and it is only Chinese insecurity that must bring up the USA in any talk about it (in contrast, you won’t find people talking about China when reviewing articles about US aggression).

>You won’t find many Economist articles going easy on the UK or USA.

On the contrary, I find Economist playing the anglosaxon party line in almost any international issue.

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#35

Post by dalbasal »

orwin wrote: post #27
dalbasal wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's (to my ears) a very American sentiment. I'd say the closest thing we have in Europe would be found in France. It also carries a soft but audible 18th century, liberal resonance. Yous really are sister republics. Heh. Anyway... I disagree (amicably). I think this is a terrible state of affairs. A fearful regime is a dangerous one. Fear is the enemy of "us" and this is degenerative to a republic, and oppressive…

> I'd say the closest thing we have in Europe would be found in France I don't know about other countries, but you're right, some Frenchmen want the government to fear them, because it's one way to keep the power in check. We also have a really strong executive power who kinda own legislative rights and have control over a tiny bit of the judiciary system, so it's understandable.

:)

I won't pretend I understand the nuances but to us it seems almost comical. Train schedule changes, and people are upset? Fires will be lit.

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#36

Post by coldtea »

em3rgent0rdr wrote: post #10
coldtea wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny how pundits from countries that have (and are still doing) all those things, point the finger at other countries for doing the same (and, internationally, far less). "aggression in the South China Sea"? The US has invaded 3+ countries in the last 20 years producing as much failed states. Is it just a "big" and not a "great" power?

Note: The Economist is British.

UK itself has for 5+ decades been deeply tied to the power across the Atlantic, so?

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#37

Post by growlist »

blattimwind wrote: post #32
simonh wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some trends in current international relations that are worrying for many people who support liberal democratic principles. The failure of the Euro, which was a landmark liberal project. The Brexit vote in Britain. American protectionism. Russian political interference and military aggression. China's renewed suppression of individual liberties and its moves to export it's totalitarian and censorious princi…

The Euro has failed? That's news to me.

Unemployment is at high levels in several eurozone countries, and this is blamed by some on the euro, and if you consider this a fair assessment and are unemployed I suppose you might think the euro has failed for you.

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#38

Post by simonh »

blattimwind wrote: post #32
simonh wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some trends in current international relations that are worrying for many people who support liberal democratic principles. The failure of the Euro, which was a landmark liberal project. The Brexit vote in Britain. American protectionism. Russian political interference and military aggression. China's renewed suppression of individual liberties and its moves to export it's totalitarian and censorious princi…

The Euro has failed? That's news to me.

Recent reforms in it's implementation have made big improvements, but the inflexibility of it's initial implementation brought disaster to Greece and near-disaster to Ireland, Portugal and severe harm to others.

The Euro was supposed to stop things like that happening, but instead it made them considerably worse than they needed to be. That was a failure. I mean it failed to achieve some vitally important goals of economic stability it was supposed to guarantee.

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#39

Post by [deleted] »

blattimwind wrote: post #32
simonh wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some trends in current international relations that are worrying for many people who support liberal democratic principles. The failure of the Euro, which was a landmark liberal project. The Brexit vote in Britain. American protectionism. Russian political interference and military aggression. China's renewed suppression of individual liberties and its moves to export it's totalitarian and censorious princi…

The Euro has failed? That's news to me.

[deleted]

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#40

Post by slavik81 »

dalbasal wrote: post #22

This is a tangent, but I noticed how this line feels like it (almost) requires no further support: " liberal democracy’s current ills have opened an.. " While I'm not disagreeing, just don't recall reading a decent narration on what exactly is going on. What are liberal democracies' current ills? Did we agree on a list, when I wasn't looking?

It makes more sense in context of the physical newspaper where you will usually see all their articles, in addition to the theme on the cover.

They covered that in an article, "After decades of triumph, democracy is losing ground" — https://www.economist.com/international/2018/06/16/after-dec...

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