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The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

economist.com

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Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#21

Post by 07d046 »

I've just started reading Silent Invasian: China's Influence in Australia, which made headlines around the world last year when its original publisher decided not to publish it out of fear of what the Chinese Communist Party and its proxies in Australia would react. That China has this sort of influence (see also all the airlines and hotels and other companies that bent over backwards to apologise for listing China and Taiwan as separate countries) overseas already is worrying.

On another note, I don't like the moral equivalency that seems to be popular between China and the US. The "but America does bad things too" response. The reality of America is often ugly, but it was founded and has always preached ideals like democracy and liberty and human rights and the rule of law. America's great failings are generally when it doesn't live up to its own ideals. Meanwhile, the Chinese Communist Party holds none of those ideals, sees the rights of the individual as completely subservient to the needs of the state, and has no qualms with wide scale censorship, jailing human rights lawyers and activists, harvesting the organs of political prisoners, etc.

In my opinion, one of the most unfortunate consequences of China's growing power is that it gives other authoritarian countries cover to abuse human rights. We seem to be seeing it in the Philippines with Duterte, and just last week a US citizen was arrested (and hasn't been released) in Vietnam after being involved in a protest.

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#22

Post by dalbasal »

This is a tangent, but I noticed how this line feels like it (almost) requires no further support:

"liberal democracy’s current ills have opened an.."

While I'm not disagreeing, just don't recall reading a decent narration on what exactly is going on. What are liberal democracies' current ills? Did we agree on a list, when I wasn't looking?

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#23

Post by throw8185 »

geowwy wrote: post #13

This seems to be the key paragraph: > A confident power permits debate to flourish, unthreatened by ideas; a fearful > one will seek to manipulate or shut it down. The party is increasingly obliged > to try to replicate its domestic censorship on a global scale, to suppress > views of China that the party does not like, wherever they are manifested. > Sustained investment in propaganda in Chinese-language media and i…

This is a good point. I definitely support free speech (that should go without saying), but it seems to be spread with a fervor not unlike how Christianity was spread during colonization.

For example, is the quality of life in Mexico--with free speech and democracy--better than one like Singapore or even China?

There are also different ideals of free speech too. The US version is very different from the European version.

Free speech should be ultimate goal, but perhaps there are other steps that need to be achieved first.

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#24

Post by bshepard »

zeth___ wrote: post #15
Hnrobert42 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many would argue your example supports the author’s point. US meddling in South and Central America significantly tarnished the US reputation. Further, destabilzed govts led to underperforming economies that could be great alternative trade partners. Instead, those countries are now vulnerable to Chinese influence in return for investment captial. While you may have wished to divert attention from China or simply ret…

If the US reputation was tarnished so much list all the countries where US backed invasions or coups killed more than 100,000 people in the 20th century. And please call it what it is: genocide. I do enjoy a bit of whataboutism in the morning, the need to not murder millions is not a western ideal, the First, Second, Korean, Vietnam and Iraq wars all show how little value democracies place on the lives of non-citizen…

Nor does the US democracy place value on the lives of citizens in oppressed nationality groups; the so-called "prison system" of the US is a veiled concentration camp archipelago, the largest ever in human history.

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#25

Post by baybal2 »

After meeting not one, but now around ~15 CCP members/officials of different statures in the party hierarchy. I can say that indeed a lot of things that drive the current generation of CCP's "hereditary nobility" (people in late forties to ~55 now) are manifestations of their social ineptness and insecurity.

Their comparison to frailing 19th century European nobility, I think, is totally appropriate.

What they afraid the most is "becoming nothing special people."

The world outside China scares them, as they see there is no place for people like them in the modern society that China will inevitably and invariably become as it evolves economically

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#26

Post by seanmcdirmid »

saagarjha wrote: post #3

I'd argue that a government is supposed to fear its citizens. It's just not supposed to censor them and take away their rights to quell that fear: rather, it should hold itself accountable and not do things that would cause resentment.

Since China lacks real elections, the only way for a Chinese citizen to hold their government accountable is to protest or revolt. In the west, citizens can simply “vote the turkeys out”, which, by just rendering the politician unemployed, is less violent and often results in peaceful transitions.

The definition of “fear” is then just very different.

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#27

Post by orwin »

dalbasal wrote: post #19
saagarjha wrote: post #3

I'd argue that a government is supposed to fear its citizens. It's just not supposed to censor them and take away their rights to quell that fear: rather, it should hold itself accountable and not do things that would cause resentment.

That's (to my ears) a very American sentiment. I'd say the closest thing we have in Europe would be found in France. It also carries a soft but audible 18th century, liberal resonance. Yous really are sister republics. Heh. Anyway... I disagree (amicably). I think this is a terrible state of affairs. A fearful regime is a dangerous one. Fear is the enemy of "us" and this is degenerative to a republic, and oppressive…

> I'd say the closest thing we have in Europe would be found in France

I don't know about other countries, but you're right, some Frenchmen want the government to fear them, because it's one way to keep the power in check. We also have a really strong executive power who kinda own legislative rights and have control over a tiny bit of the judiciary system, so it's understandable.

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#28

Post by simonh »

dalbasal wrote: post #22

This is a tangent, but I noticed how this line feels like it (almost) requires no further support: " liberal democracy’s current ills have opened an.. " While I'm not disagreeing, just don't recall reading a decent narration on what exactly is going on. What are liberal democracies' current ills? Did we agree on a list, when I wasn't looking?

There are some trends in current international relations that are worrying for many people who support liberal democratic principles. The failure of the Euro, which was a landmark liberal project. The Brexit vote in Britain. American protectionism. Russian political interference and military aggression. China's renewed suppression of individual liberties and its moves to export it's totalitarian and censorious principles abroad.

To be sure some of these are self-inflicted. The Euro was badly conceived and implemented. Brexit and Trump are the result of democratic votes. However they are clearly signs of a general swing away from liberal values. Liberalism and it's proponents in it's broadest sense bears much of the blame for all of this.

By liberalism I do not mean socialism. I'm a lifelong Conservative voter. I believe in individual freedom and see the EU with it's freedoms of movement and trade as a cornerstone of individual liberties here in Britain and the rest of Europe. Trade free of arbitrary and capricious tariffs is another important freedom we are in danger of having curtailed. The Good Friday agreement that brought peace to Northern Ireland did so by granting Northern Irish the freedom to choose British or Irish citizenship or both and opened up the border, a triumph of increased individual liberty, and is under threat due to Brexit. Liberalism in it's broad sense cuts across the left/right political divide, at least here in the UK.

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#29

Post by gepi79 »

dalbasal wrote: post #19
saagarjha wrote: post #3

I'd argue that a government is supposed to fear its citizens. It's just not supposed to censor them and take away their rights to quell that fear: rather, it should hold itself accountable and not do things that would cause resentment.

That's (to my ears) a very American sentiment. I'd say the closest thing we have in Europe would be found in France. It also carries a soft but audible 18th century, liberal resonance. Yous really are sister republics. Heh. Anyway... I disagree (amicably). I think this is a terrible state of affairs. A fearful regime is a dangerous one. Fear is the enemy of "us" and this is degenerative to a republic, and oppressive…

An elected government does not fear its voters.

And Assad does not fear the people.

Damascus: https://www.unusualtraveler.com/damascus/

Aleppo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6omfaKhZL0

Ghouta: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K49aHbU1JPg

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#30

Post by seanmcdirmid »

coldtea wrote: post #6
zeth___ wrote: post #2

>To be a great, rather than just a big power, China needs the world’s acceptance. More open domestic markets, fewer hidden subsidies and less dumping, less industrial espionage and less aggression in the South China Sea would all help. Why? The US posturing and genocide in South America for 200 years did not stop it from being a great power, that the pacific rim will now see the same from a yellow and not white face…

It's funny how pundits from countries that have (and are still doing) all those things, point the finger at other countries for doing the same (and, internationally, far less). "aggression in the South China Sea"? The US has invaded 3+ countries in the last 20 years producing as much failed states. Is it just a "big" and not a "great" power?

Pundits are more than happy to criticize their own countries or (in this case) their allies. You won’t find many Economist articles going easy on the UK or USA.

They are just giving China equal treatment, and it is only Chinese insecurity that must bring up the USA in any talk about it (in contrast, you won’t find people talking about China when reviewing articles about US aggression).

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