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Dev Watercooler: World of Warcraft Classic

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81–90 of 92 posts

Re: Dev Watercooler: World of Warcraft Classic

#81

The secret sauce of Vanilla was the sense of place and sense of community. You don't need the old patch. You need persistent identities and travel time. Small populations, no server or faction transfers, and walking to dungeons is the vast majority of it. I also really miss Vanilla dungeon design, where I felt like I was exploring a dangerous place instead of having a very scripted, linear experience. I loved Blackro…

At the tail end of the text based game era I tried to work with a couple different groups building large maps and better story lines.

It bothered me profoundly that the memory usage in the games was proportional to the details of the map instead of the number of players. One guy had built an entire world in the Thad Williams' Memory Sorrow and Thorn universe. It had a great text processing engine but it was built on a fatal use-after-free flaw that was beyond me to fix at the time, and the head of the project understood it less than I did.

Eventually he folded and worked on my second favorite one, which I built a text-deduplication library to decrease their memory footprint by half (there was pushback on expanding the map due to resource constraints). I'm not sure they ever used it. By the time I removed an obvious footgun they'd already said no.

Later I later took a computer graphics class, and when one of the assigments was based on fractal landscapes. I still believe that the right way to run a big world with a small team is to use a generated world as the base, and then have your team carve a civilization into it. The computer makes the river valley, the designers put a town in it. The computer generates a cave, the designers fill it with monsters. The backdrop is cheap as can be from a human and compute resources standpoint, and it's easy to have a big space even before you have enough stories to fit into it. The fourth bit of code I wrote in what became my primary language for years was a fractal map generator, trying to get coastlines and ridgelines that looked organic, but by then I had a real job and had begun to worry about the Skinner Effect in multiplayer games.

Re: Dev Watercooler: World of Warcraft Classic

#82
post #80
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh, interesting. Probably someone who experienced that themselves. I'll be reading that, thanks for the suggestion.

To anyone expecting this to be good, don't. It's a 'protagonist gets sucked into another world' type of story and not 'protagonist looks at the meaninglessness of life, both on and offline'.

Hmm, it is an isekai, but I think it's above average from many other that I've read. I'm sorry if my post mislead you into believing it'd be a specific kind of story, that wasn't my intent.

Re: Dev Watercooler: World of Warcraft Classic

#83

I still don't understand why they didn't go with either Diablo or Diablo 2. Much easier to make compatible with modern settings, much easier for new and casual players to get into, much easier to maintain, and arguably more people hungry to play it online over legacy WoW players.

Diablo 1 and 2 are still playable online today, so those who really want to play them already are. D1 and D2 are also harder to monetize than WoW, where there's the expectation of paying a monthly subscription instead of making a one-time purchase

Re: Dev Watercooler: World of Warcraft Classic

#84

The secret sauce of Vanilla was the sense of place and sense of community. You don't need the old patch. You need persistent identities and travel time. Small populations, no server or faction transfers, and walking to dungeons is the vast majority of it. I also really miss Vanilla dungeon design, where I felt like I was exploring a dangerous place instead of having a very scripted, linear experience. I loved Blackro…

Spot on. Dungeon finder and cross server BGs / dungeons killed the sense of community. Instant travel to instances killed the feeling of the size of the world. All the streamlining of combat and the removal of the threat management game made dungeons boring while adding loot tokens made the dungeon grind mandatory.

Re: Dev Watercooler: World of Warcraft Classic

#85
post #79

The secret sauce of Vanilla was the sense of place and sense of community. You don't need the old patch. You need persistent identities and travel time. Small populations, no server or faction transfers, and walking to dungeons is the vast majority of it. I also really miss Vanilla dungeon design, where I felt like I was exploring a dangerous place instead of having a very scripted, linear experience. I loved Blackro…

Some of the longer dungeons were hard to run, though. I played Vanilla, leveling several different characters to 60, and I'm pretty sure I only managed to run Maraudon start-to-finish once. (Doing just the inner Mauradon shortcut to kill Princess was more common, admittedly.) I do kind of miss those things, I admit. Instances where you could find keys that would persistently unlock shortcuts, so if you came back late…

> I'm pretty sure I only managed to run Maraudon start-to-finish once.

The early dungeons had a massive range of levels, though. IIRC the mobs in outer Maraudon were low 40s (high 30s?) whereas Princess Theredras was lvl 50. You weren't really meant to clear the thing in one sweep.

Re: Dev Watercooler: World of Warcraft Classic

#86
post #71

It makes me really sad that they are including Battlegrounds in WoW classic. There was a magical period from release date to the first Battlegrounds patch where people actually took part in large scale, world PVP. Guilds would get together and raid towns, and it was the most fun I’ve ever had in an MMO. If you wanted to do something, it took lots of planning and working together with people, not just clicking a queue…

Do you also remember the massive imbalances in world PVP? The majority of servers were significantly skewed towards one faction (my own was 3:1) which meant world PVP was super fun primarily for the overpopulated faction. This is the entire reason battlegrounds were introduced - balanced world PVP was unviable on almost every server. It was one of the primary complaints about the game, and could even have resulted in…

The new "War Mode" mechanics sound neat. It's an opt-in experience you set in a capital city, and then when you go out in the world you are in a _balanced_ shard of only others who opted in as well.

Re: Dev Watercooler: World of Warcraft Classic

#87
post #85
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the longer dungeons were hard to run, though. I played Vanilla, leveling several different characters to 60, and I'm pretty sure I only managed to run Maraudon start-to-finish once. (Doing just the inner Mauradon shortcut to kill Princess was more common, admittedly.) I do kind of miss those things, I admit. Instances where you could find keys that would persistently unlock shortcuts, so if you came back late…

> I'm pretty sure I only managed to run Maraudon start-to-finish once. The early dungeons had a massive range of levels, though. IIRC the mobs in outer Maraudon were low 40s (high 30s?) whereas Princess Theredras was lvl 50. You weren't really meant to clear the thing in one sweep.

It didn't help that Maraudon was in Desolace, and the only place harder and more time consuming to get to (for Alliance, at least) was Feralas. It was something like a half hour journey to get there, counting boat travel, gryphons, and riding yourself, so you ended up often only playing with people who were already there, or already questing in the area.

Re: Dev Watercooler: World of Warcraft Classic

#89
post #72

Is this too little too late? After j Allen brack scolded the fans over how preposterous the question of classic servers was. And Blizzard shut down the two major classic servers. It's possible that the well is poisoned and people won't want to play out of principle or that they just moved onto other games and the time to capitalize on this has passed.

It was preposterous and still is. It just happens to also be what a vocal minority want, so here we are. There will be a tiny cohort of players who will play this and genuinely enjoy it. The rest will be people who thought it was amazing (it was, in 2004) but have not realized that for 2018, vanilla is in so many ways a bad game.

What has happened that makes vanilla a bad game in 2018?

Re: Dev Watercooler: World of Warcraft Classic

#90
post #73
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, the grind is massive compared to current WoW. Also, you’ll need friends to play vanilla, there’s very few stuff which can be done solo and finding groups is very time consuming. I’ll definitely be checking this out for nostalgia but I don’t expect to reach the level cap. Probably not even 40 which used to be quite a feat already back then.

I leveled to 60 solo before joining a guild. It can be done, it wasn't too hard, and now everything is better documented.

Yeah leveling is possible solo. I forgot to mention I was referring to the endgame content.
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