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Scientists say new material can triple lithium-ion battery energy density

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Re: Scientists say new material can triple lithium-ion battery energy density

#51

Post by thermodynthrway »

bdamm wrote: post #45
jwatte wrote: post #25

Isn't there a new cathode material promising manyfold improvement announced about every three weeks or so? I'd like to see one of them actually deliver in new batteries. But instead, the 50% or so improvement we've seen over the last ten years have all been because of incremental refinement. Color me skeptical until it's proven in production.

Well, the power of a battery the size of a brick in the 80’s is now available in a AA form factor. I’d say the improvement has been profound, if not quite as profound as Moore’s law is for CPUs.

Sadly, it isn't remotely that good, closer to a change from C to AA. NiCad rechargeables have been around for over a century and LiPo only has a density about 3x higher. Overall we've only increased the energy density of the average rechargeable battery about 5x in a century, with most of the increase from introduction of NIMH then LiPo

Improvements in power efficiency have made battery advancements seem better than they are.

Re: Scientists say new material can triple lithium-ion battery energy density

#52

Post by Gibbon1 »

ethbro wrote: post #34
Gibbon1 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has been an enormous amount work on battery technology for the last 30 years. Probably 99% of it leads to dead ends. Standard rule of battery development, if everything goes right it takes ten years to market. And another ten to get market share. In the late 90's early 2000's there was paper after paper published on lithium iron phosphate batteries and dick all nothing for sale until ~2010. And ten years later…

Are there any main reasons for this? I'd assume conservative and long-design time downstream users mean there isn't a volume market for new battery tech.

I'm assuming twofold; engineering for scale and marketing.

Once you've sort of proven something in research you need to develop processes for manufacturing at scale. Those processes are often radically different than the one used during initial development. 10X rule applies. Take ten times the resources to bring something into production than to just design it. And worse with batteries you're dealing with primary materials. You may have needs for material inputs that simply do not exist at scale. No one makes material X in 100 metric ton quantities. The only source is a post doc making 100 gram batches. Sometimes the batches are bad for reasons unknown.

Re: Scientists say new material can triple lithium-ion battery energy density

#53

Post by slavik81 »

anonuser123456 wrote: post #40
the8472 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the energy density of a cup of water when viewed as fuel for fusion reactions.

Zero? A cup of water doesn't typically contain tritium.

You can fuse anything lighter than iron and it will release energy. The process with tritium is just easier. Stars can extract the nuclear potential energy from hydrogen and oxygen just fine.

Re: Scientists say new material can triple lithium-ion battery energy density

#54

Post by AngryData »

The problem is even though we have gotten miraculously stable lithium batteries, they still aren't 'bulletproof' enough that explosion and fire risks are negligible. Add 3x more energy to it and it starts becoming a really big problem. This is what has kept 99.9% of these miraculous battery technologies we always hear about, too dangerous to use in consumer devices.

If it is as stable, or preferably more stable, than current tech, great! If it is anything less, you will never see it except in maybe industrial applications.

Re: Scientists say new material can triple lithium-ion battery energy density

#55

Post by int_19h »

thermodynthrway wrote: post #51
bdamm wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the power of a battery the size of a brick in the 80’s is now available in a AA form factor. I’d say the improvement has been profound, if not quite as profound as Moore’s law is for CPUs.

Sadly, it isn't remotely that good, closer to a change from C to AA. NiCad rechargeables have been around for over a century and LiPo only has a density about 3x higher. Overall we've only increased the energy density of the average rechargeable battery about 5x in a century, with most of the increase from introduction of NIMH then LiPo Improvements in power efficiency have made battery advancements seem better than…

I think most people are looking at flashlights for comparison, and LEDs were a massive leap in efficiency there.

Didn't we make it all a great deal cheaper, though? I'm noticing lately that now even very cheap devices - the kind you can buy on eBay for a couple bucks - that used to be powered by AA batteries and such, are now coming with an integral lithium battery (and usually an integral micro-USB charger).

Re: Scientists say new material can triple lithium-ion battery energy density

#56

Post by solarkraft »

Please don't let this become news until there's a production ready design.

There are lots of these battery innovations promising multiple x of improvement, yet never delivering anything. Maybe it's actually interesting to battery chemistry enthusiasts, but you can't give them headlines like this either.

Bring the down votes.

Re: Scientists say new material can triple lithium-ion battery energy density

#57

Post by taneq »

linsomniac wrote: post #33

If even half of these amazing battery technologies had come true, my car would be driven by a D cell battery. But I'm ok that it hasn't, because I once heard a battery chemistry guy say that "the higher capacity a battery is the more it resembles a bomb." I can't find the reference any more, but with all the Samsungs and Teslas catching fire, it rings true.

> the higher capacity a battery is the more it resembles a bomb

A battery is a package containing the reagents necessary for a highly energetic reaction. A bomb is a package containing the reagents necessary for a highly energetic reaction. A high-capacity battery is effectively a bomb, pretty much by definition.

Re: Scientists say new material can triple lithium-ion battery energy density

#58

Post by arithma »

givinguflac wrote: post #49
Tloewald wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have everything to do with increasing power density. By definition power density is potential energy and when you release that energy you get waste heat.

The capacity is relevant to the intensity of the event, but the reason the event occurs has nothing to do with capacity.

The probability of an event could be related to density. High chemical density possibly required for capacity could mean higher gradients which also could have implications on not only intensity of an event, but also on its probability.

Re: Scientists say new material can triple lithium-ion battery energy density

#59

Post by mavdi »

solarkraft wrote: post #56

Please don't let this become news until there's a production ready design. There are lots of these battery innovations promising multiple x of improvement, yet never delivering anything. Maybe it's actually interesting to battery chemistry enthusiasts, but you can't give them headlines like this either. Bring the down votes.

Totally with you. Battery research headlines are as reliable as apocalypse predictions these days.

Re: Scientists say new material can triple lithium-ion battery energy density

#60

Post by Roritharr »

AngryData wrote: post #54

The problem is even though we have gotten miraculously stable lithium batteries, they still aren't 'bulletproof' enough that explosion and fire risks are negligible. Add 3x more energy to it and it starts becoming a really big problem. This is what has kept 99.9% of these miraculous battery technologies we always hear about, too dangerous to use in consumer devices. If it is as stable, or preferably more stable, than…

Industrial Applications, as Tesla has shown in Australia & Puerto Rico, are still a magnificent boon to society, so I hope they roll-out the more dangerous iterations sooner than later.
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