How Firefox is using Pocket to try to build a better news feed than Facebook • Hacker News Board

Re: How Firefox is using Pocket to try to build a better news feed than Facebook

#41

Post by Sylos » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 11:08 PM UTC

dingaling wrote: post #20

forapurpose wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can. Just don't use Pocket or disable it.

But Mozilla are still pouring mental and financial resources into Pocket, including the servers to host it and power its recommendations. So just ignoring it still leaves a deleterious effect on Firefox overall.

They make money off of Pocket. Companies can pay to have their articles be in the pool of recommendable articles.

And it's especially also a different source of income than search engines. They try to differentiate here, in case for example Google's monopoly becomes even more extreme and they push the price down.

And exactly in this vein, a big motivation for Pocket is competing with search engines in general. It tries to be another channel through which users can discover new content, so that Google can't determine everything you believe in without any hindrance.

Re: How Firefox is using Pocket to try to build a better news feed than Facebook

#42

Post by bscphil » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 11:20 PM UTC

chalkandpaste wrote: post #24

I disabled everything from Pocket I possibly can when I downloaded and setup Firefox, in the `about:config`. That integration annoys me to no end. Who decided I needed pocket in my browser?

The belief most people have that Mozilla puts things in the browser they expect to be useful to users is mistaken and needs to die. They didn't decide you needed Pocket in your browser. They wanted Pocket in your browser, so that they could sell story spots (read: ads) to the highest bidder.

They discuss advertising in the browser chrome here: https://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases/2018/04/30/a-privacy...

Note the PR-speak in that article. Advertising, by its very nature, cannot "provide value to users". If a publisher is paying to promote a story, it's because they want the story to capture more of users' attention than the users themselves want.

Re: How Firefox is using Pocket to try to build a better news feed than Facebook

#43

Post by bscphil » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 11:25 PM UTC

shock wrote: post #29

ve55 wrote: post #19

These things do not belong in Firefox. Firefox should be a standalone web browser that focuses on security, privacy, efficiency, and customization. Not Chome+Social Media 2.0.

I probably would have agreed with you in the past, but not anymore. Here's why: I was having coffee with a friend today and he mentioned he was thinking about opening a facebook account – here's the kicker: the reason he wanted to get a FB account was the news feed; he wanted to be able to subscribe to people's pages and get updates when they post something new. I mentioned RSS; he was flabbergasted. He didn't know s…

> I came home and investigated – the option to "subscribe to page" when the page has an RSS feed is gone from Firefox, or at least I couldn't find it.

Actually it's a lot easy than others have said. It's just Bookmarks > Subscribe to This Page. If you don't have the menu bar enabled (I do), you can just press alt to see it.

Re: How Firefox is using Pocket to try to build a better news feed than Facebook

#44

Post by Sylos » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 11:27 PM UTC

jes5199 wrote: post #7

I tried to switch back to Firefox, but my password manager (lastpass) doesn’t work correctly, I guess the new extension APIs are too restrictiy. So, Chrome it is.

Firefox's new extension API is Chrome's extension API + a few extra APIs. There's a handful of APIs that are actually Chrome/-ium specific, which made no sense porting to Firefox in the exact same way, but those should not be critical to the functioning of a password manager.

The only way in which Firefox is actually more restrictive with extensions, is in requiring user opt-in for internet connections that are not necessary for the functioning of the extension (so that's usually telemetry or ads).

But if LastPass refused to function because it can't send data back home that's not actually needed, and which it can't reasonably explain to users, or because it can't load third-party content from the internet, which would be a massive security hole, then I strongly advise using a different password manager.

Overall, though, this sounds to me like LastPass is just too incompetent to port their extension, which again should not be hard as Firefox's extension API is essentially a superset of Chrome's.

Re: How Firefox is using Pocket to try to build a better news feed than Facebook

#45

Post by twblalock » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 11:27 PM UTC

Fnoord wrote: post #40

twblalock wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I want to use LastPass (or any other popular extension), and it does not work in a particular browser, I don't care whose fault that is -- I won't use that browser. If Firefox is going to regain any of its former glory, it needs to be easy for people to switch to without making sacrifices.

It needs to be easy and clear for developers to port their extension. Ie. good documentation. Whether it is or not, I don't know. It feels unfair if you blame only Mozilla for your issue though. It only seems to be that way because Mozilla changed something. But developers knew well in advance about this change. If Photoshop doesn't work on the latest Windows version, do you blame Microsoft or Adobe? It'd depend on t…

> If Photoshop doesn't work on the latest Windows version, do you blame Microsoft or Adobe? It'd depend on the nature of the issue but generally Microsoft allows developers to plan ahead.

A solution either works or it doesn't, and if it doesn't, blaming people doesn't solve anything.

For example, if I needed to use Photoshop for my job and it did not work on Windows, I would have to use a Mac. I would have to do this even if it was solely Adobe's fault that Photoshop did not work on Windows. Deciding who to blame would not solve my problem.

Re: How Firefox is using Pocket to try to build a better news feed than Facebook

#46

Post by Fnoord » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 11:36 PM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #45

Fnoord wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It needs to be easy and clear for developers to port their extension. Ie. good documentation. Whether it is or not, I don't know. It feels unfair if you blame only Mozilla for your issue though. It only seems to be that way because Mozilla changed something. But developers knew well in advance about this change. If Photoshop doesn't work on the latest Windows version, do you blame Microsoft or Adobe? It'd depend on t…

> If Photoshop doesn't work on the latest Windows version, do you blame Microsoft or Adobe? It'd depend on the nature of the issue but generally Microsoft allows developers to plan ahead. A solution either works or it doesn't, and if it doesn't, blaming people doesn't solve anything. For example, if I needed to use Photoshop for my job and it did not work on Windows, I would have to use a Mac. I would have to do this…

> Deciding who to blame would not solve my problem.

Well, you don't blame right away, you first try to solve the problem. If something doesn't work you contact a support dept. In this case you'd contact Adobe support since its their software. In Firefox example you'd contact LogMeIn since its their software. If Firefox explodes bunnies, you contact Mozilla but if your PC shoots lasers at bunnies you contact whoever you bought your PC from (e.g. Dell).

If there's a package on Debian which doesn't work who I contact the package maintainer or the software developer? If I buy a car radio and it doesn't work on my car, who do I call? If I buy a Raspberry Pi and Linux stops working on it, who do I call? If you buy a vacuum cleaner from brand X and it doesn't work anymore, you go to the store and they arrange it for you because the deal is with them. The answer who to contact -and ultimately blame if the problem isn't solved- is the company you do directly business with. You bought a product from LastPass and subscribed to it; you pay for that, get them to fix their shit that's what you're paying for. A working product. Simple.

Or, just do like I do, and switch from a product which got more than twice as expensive for zero benefit for the customer. Because if you don't switch you reward that shitty behavior.

Re: How Firefox is using Pocket to try to build a better news feed than Facebook

#47

Post by shock » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 11:42 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #39

shock wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I probably would have agreed with you in the past, but not anymore. Here's why: I was having coffee with a friend today and he mentioned he was thinking about opening a facebook account – here's the kicker: the reason he wanted to get a FB account was the news feed; he wanted to be able to subscribe to people's pages and get updates when they post something new. I mentioned RSS; he was flabbergasted. He didn't know s…

I thought RSS feeds weren't available for Facebook entities (users/friends, pages, groups, etc)?

He reads people's blogs and he's interested to know when they post new stuff. The whole new FB account thing was his solution to the problem because those people also have FB accounts/pages and post there when they have a new blog post.

Re: How Firefox is using Pocket to try to build a better news feed than Facebook

#48

Post by class4behavior » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 11:46 PM UTC

xg15 wrote: post #37

shock wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I probably would have agreed with you in the past, but not anymore. Here's why: I was having coffee with a friend today and he mentioned he was thinking about opening a facebook account – here's the kicker: the reason he wanted to get a FB account was the news feed; he wanted to be able to subscribe to people's pages and get updates when they post something new. I mentioned RSS; he was flabbergasted. He didn't know s…

> he wanted to be able to subscribe to people's pages and get updates when they post something new. Yes, but even this feature would be more like a traditional browser: A service-neutral, "dumb" feature where the user is directly in control. Not in an abstract marketing sense but literally: A user subscribes to a page and will get all events from tha page in predicatable order. The "news feed" as implemented by Faceb…

You've explained where Facebook's likely interest lies, but not why that feature is actually popular.

I don't see any difference with how HN and Reddit attract people. They all seek the added social aspect to reading news; and Facebook is just what people know.

>Apologies for being cynical, but I'm not surprised.

Luckily cynicism doesn't equal realism. FF devs often make data-driven decisions, and none of the devs showed interest fixing all the accumulated bugs. So they left this to matter to add-ons, the big button was eventually stored away and the one in the address bar abandoned for Pocket. No sneaky marketing strategies involved.

Re: How Firefox is using Pocket to try to build a better news feed than Facebook

#49

Post by class4behavior » Sun, Jun 17, 2018, 12:00 AM UTC

shock wrote: post #30

megaman22 wrote: post #23

Man, why can't we just use RSS as it was intended?

Because almost nobody non technical knows about it. Not even all developers know about it.

Well, that is, as a relative share, in absolute numbers it is still enough for services like inoreader to do fairly well.

Re: How Firefox is using Pocket to try to build a better news feed than Facebook

#50

Post by pdkl95 » Sun, Jun 17, 2018, 12:02 AM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #38

chalkandpaste wrote: post #24

I disabled everything from Pocket I possibly can when I downloaded and setup Firefox, in the `about:config`. That integration annoys me to no end. Who decided I needed pocket in my browser?

I wish they would remove the feature. People who really want Pocket can install an extension.

They could even be adventurous and offer multiple downloads with different extension bundles. These would be easy to implement; because extension bundling already exists as "collections"[1]. Something like:

- Standard Firefox with our officially recommended extension. (use for the front-page/default download)

- Minimal Firefox without any extensions or other optional features. ("Try this on older/slower computers")

- Developer Starter Kit with a selection of extensions related to web development.

- Social Media Special with more extensions like Pocket plus quality-of-life features for people that spend z lot of time on Facebook/etc.

Having a variety of options is important, because there isn't a universal spaghetti sauce[2].

[1] https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/collections/

[2] https://www.ted.com/talks/malcolm_gladwell_on_spaghetti_sauc...