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The Absurdity of Student Loan Debt

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Re: The Absurdity of Student Loan Debt

#61
according to wikipedia[0] "As of Quarter 1 in 2012, the average student loan balance for all age groups is $24,301"

which to me doesn't sound too bad (i.e. less than a year of salary). is that inaccurate and is she talking about a complete different figure here?

in the netherlands it's fairly common to finish school with a couple of thousand euro's in debt, so why is this such a big issue in the usa?

0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_debt#United_States

Re: The Absurdity of Student Loan Debt

#62
MFA in creative writing and professional software developer here. I took out nearly twice as much as Gillette did to get my MFA over the course of a two-year program.

A lot of the people I spoke to in school decided to fork over that much cash because they'd been brainwashed into believing that there was value in the pursuit of your dream and that that value was intangible. Some of that started when we were kids when our parents told us we could be anything we wanted to be. We grew up expecting we would do whatever we wanted simply because that's the way we imagined the world should work and that if we did it well enough we would be successful.

Of course in reality we'd most likely never be able to make the kind of money that would allow us to repay those loans and live comfortable lives and retire at the modest age of 65, but there would be value despite that. You can't possibly quantify that value sufficiently enough to compare it to anything else before you dive in. My school happened to be fairly upfront about the downsides of their six-figure (over two years) tuition and would regularly advise that if you could not support yourself you ought to drop out. But so many students consciously decided to ignore the hardship they were going through because they thought it was temporary.

Some of the younger students got funding from their parents and never thought twice about the finances. Many of the older students, myself included, had saved up for the experience and had done an honest, sane calculation of the costs and whether they could bare it. We knew we'd return to our careers afterward and we'd make good money and be perfectly satisfied in our literary obscurity. Some got modest financial aid. Some got free rides. A select few got lucky and received six-figure book deals shortly after graduation. But others, who had only just begun their careers, who weren't talented enough for scholarships, who had not received the kind of financial education I and many others had, who didn't have the career prospects, are bludgeoned every month by their spectacular debt.

I own a small apartment and make good money as a software developer. My wife also works and we are very comfortable, but I look at my debt every day and think about all the things we could have had that might have been more valuable. I began school thinking I would never marry and would never have a kid because I didn't really want those things for myself. But I unexpectedly met my now-wife and we chose to have a kid and I realize that my two-year indulgence could have been my kid's college tuition. Or a good chunk toward private school. Or a down payment toward a house in the burbs. And I would happily trade in my degree for that if I could.

Every time I get together with my writing friends, we always talk about selling our books and making good money for them. It seems possible because we see our lucky few classmates have done it. It's a strange illusion, but it's one of the few things that makes the burden a bit more bearable.

The absurdity in my mind continues to be that any of us saw that much value in the degree in the first place. It's easy to say in retrospect that it wasn't a good financial decision, but there's a lot of pressure at the outset to pursue an idealistic vision. It's something people say they wish they'd done and when you have the opportunity and the gumption to do it you feel like you're doing something right. It feels heroic. Not a lot of people are willing to talk you down from it.

I'm pretty certain an MFA as a degree doesn't need to exist, but it's a cash cow for art schools, so the economics make sense for them. But it should be more than a debate about student loans. Adjuncts are underpaid, students are overpaying, and the people who run the programs continue to present the illusion of value. I'm not sure that more financial education is a perfect solution either because the system is exploitative.

Re: The Absurdity of Student Loan Debt

#63
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Devil's advocate, but maybe that's why college has become the new high school?

Not really, that phenomenon is hlobal, as observed everywhere in the developed world. It has mote yo do with competition to get jobs for young people.

In a complex system there are multiple reasons for every event. I'd say these are both factors. Globalization and driving force of capitalism is the context, and proportional investment in primary education is an obvious step that we're not taking.

Re: The Absurdity of Student Loan Debt

#64
post #53
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it baffling when you literally did the same thing with credit card debt? People are generally bad with financial decisions because they are abstract and because good decisions typically require significant delayed gratification. Realistically, many sound financial decisions require putting off gratification forever , which is a hard pill to swallow. I ended up with a decent bit of debt for stupid reasons (e.g.…

> How is it baffling when you literally did the same thing with credit card debt? I entered college when credit card companies were just starting to practice predatory sign-ups on campus and at college events. And many of the tactics they used back then have since been outlawed. That was also at a time when the wealth of information we now have in the internet did not exist. Given the myriad of channels to learn thes…

Sorry, how long ago did you enter college?

Honestly the dangers of high interest rate debt have been known for millennia, anyway. This feels like a lack of self awareness. “Other people’s mistakes are their fault. My mistakes are other people’s fault too.”

Re: The Absurdity of Student Loan Debt

#65
post #53
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it baffling when you literally did the same thing with credit card debt? People are generally bad with financial decisions because they are abstract and because good decisions typically require significant delayed gratification. Realistically, many sound financial decisions require putting off gratification forever , which is a hard pill to swallow. I ended up with a decent bit of debt for stupid reasons (e.g.…

> How is it baffling when you literally did the same thing with credit card debt? I entered college when credit card companies were just starting to practice predatory sign-ups on campus and at college events. And many of the tactics they used back then have since been outlawed. That was also at a time when the wealth of information we now have in the internet did not exist. Given the myriad of channels to learn thes…

True, there was predation. But interest on a loan is an old, old concept.

Re: The Absurdity of Student Loan Debt

#66
post #59

Awesome post :) There's a lot of victim blaming in the student loan debt world. Let me attempt to explain how we can fix the system. 1) Education is too expensive (especially relative to the value it delivers). 2) But, that money isn't even going towards the underpaid adjuncts who teach the classes. wtf?? 3) Tuition expenses mostly go towards administrative salaries, very very old established professors, and building…

> Tuition expenses mostly go towards administrative salaries, very very old established professors, and buildings... At many (most?) universities, established professors make only slightly more than new hires because the budget simply isn’t there to pay significantly more and so the salary range compresses. And honestly, instructor pay seems like a good place to be spending money. On the other hand, administration co…

We agree, I promise. Administrative costs are far and large the major problem, as well as needless capital and operational expenses like multi million dollar landscaping and etc.

However, I seriously must qualify your statement. There are adjuncts making 20-30k per year, with no benefits. Then there are tenured professors who barely do any teaching anymore making upwards of 200k per year. Some also hold simultaneous administrative positions.

So you have to tread carefully. I think what you are trying to say is that paying a tenured associate professor 60-80k per year is a reasonable expense. I agree with this statement.

Re: The Absurdity of Student Loan Debt

#67
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tuition expenses mostly go towards administrative salaries, very very old established professors, and buildings... At many (most?) universities, established professors make only slightly more than new hires because the budget simply isn’t there to pay significantly more and so the salary range compresses. And honestly, instructor pay seems like a good place to be spending money. On the other hand, administration co…

We agree, I promise. Administrative costs are far and large the major problem, as well as needless capital and operational expenses like multi million dollar landscaping and etc. However, I seriously must qualify your statement. There are adjuncts making 20-30k per year, with no benefits. Then there are tenured professors who barely do any teaching anymore making upwards of 200k per year. Some also hold simultaneous…

Much of professors' salaries are paid from grants. The professor who barely does any teaching is (hopefully) pulling in research money.

Re: The Absurdity of Student Loan Debt

#68
post #26

Student loans should be dischargeable in bankruptcy after 10 years post-graduation (and not fully guaranteed past a certain amount, say $10K or $20K) -- hear me out. The common reason student loans are NOT allowed to be dischargeable is because, in the minute after graduating and without collateral, the student can declare bankruptcy with no effect (the vast majority are not buying a house within the time it would ta…

What you, the author, and some other posters don't seem to realize is that student loans can be forgiven after 20 or 25 years, with payments up to that point capped at 10% of discretionary income: https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/understand/plans/in...

No one should be paying "until they are 70 years old".

Re: The Absurdity of Student Loan Debt

#69
post #36

What angers me the most about debt like this is people often take on far more debt than they need for a degree. For example, going to a university in a different country/state where they cannot get any of the scholarships intended for residents. Another one a lot of my friends have done is going to a university that is substantially more expensive for very little gain. Another common one is renting student housing wh…

people often take on far more debt than they need for a degree I suspect it's the same thing as when buying a house. The numbers are too big and become just numbers, without a corresponding value. 10K more or less doesn't seem to matter all that much, while in other cases one might agonize over a $50 price difference.

“Financial bike shedding”

Re: The Absurdity of Student Loan Debt

#70
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tuition expenses mostly go towards administrative salaries, very very old established professors, and buildings... At many (most?) universities, established professors make only slightly more than new hires because the budget simply isn’t there to pay significantly more and so the salary range compresses. And honestly, instructor pay seems like a good place to be spending money. On the other hand, administration co…

We agree, I promise. Administrative costs are far and large the major problem, as well as needless capital and operational expenses like multi million dollar landscaping and etc. However, I seriously must qualify your statement. There are adjuncts making 20-30k per year, with no benefits. Then there are tenured professors who barely do any teaching anymore making upwards of 200k per year. Some also hold simultaneous…

> I think what you are trying to say is that paying a tenured associate professor 60-80k per year is a reasonable expense.

Depends on the field. You aren’t hiring PhDs in computer science with that salary. They’ll leave for industry immediately. You’re also not hiring qualified instructors in CS at $20k for the same reason.

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