Asian-American admissions at Harvard • Hacker News Board

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#51

Post by Eridrus » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 6:45 AM UTC

doubleunplussed wrote: post #25

rdtsc wrote: post #15

The linked report (exhibit A) is interesting to read: http://samv91khoyt2i553a2t1s05i-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-c... It would seem at first that Harvard wants to help poor students and race just happens to be a proxy for socioeconomic status, but it turns out that's not what they are doing: > Harvard’s preferential treatment of African-American and Hispanic applicants is not the result of efforts to achieve socioeco…

Yep. Affirmative action has biases of its own, should be blinded to prevent it. Let it be based on family income only. In Australia university admissions are based pretty much solely on one number [1] that represents your high school results (unless you didn't go to high school in Australia), plus bonus points if you are disadvantaged (for which race is not relevant unless you are an indigenous Australian or Torres S…

This is largely true, but not entirely. UNSW definitely had a program for accepting engineering students who didn't get the appropriate UAI, based on other criteria. I don't remember what it was called, but I definitely applied for it because I spent a good chunk of school fucking around and wasn't sure how badly I had messed up my grades.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#52

Post by akhilcacharya » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 6:48 AM UTC

throw1471 wrote: post #11

If Harvard admission criteria leave out the best applicants to other colleges, and they go on to create powerful companies like Google in large number, will Harvard’s prestige decrease despite continued support from the elites? Doing very well in tech entrepreneurship needs intelligence more than great personality and political connections (they should be above a level but you don’t need a very high level of them). P…

Neither Sergey nor Larry went to Harvard for undergrad, but I’m not aware of any data that says they were rejected. Both went to their states flagship before Stanford.

Maybe we should make ladders of opportunity wider, and not just focus on HYPSM and Ivies? Just a guess.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#53

Post by barry-cotter » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 6:48 AM UTC

ajross wrote: post #36

doubleunplussed wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Affirmative action has biases of its own, should be blinded to prevent it. Let it be based on family income only. In Australia university admissions are based pretty much solely on one number [1] that represents your high school results (unless you didn't go to high school in Australia), plus bonus points if you are disadvantaged (for which race is not relevant unless you are an indigenous Australian or Torres S…

> race is not relevant unless you are an indigenous Australian or Torres Strait islander So... race is relevant, then? I mean, that's a pretty big "unless".

I imagine there’d be a lot less opposition to affirmative action in the US if it only applied to descendants of Native Americans and Black people whose ancestors had been held in slavery in the US. Affirmative action as reparations plays a lot better than a spoils system which is what they have now.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#54

Post by barry-cotter » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 6:52 AM UTC

sien wrote: post #49

doubleunplussed wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Affirmative action has biases of its own, should be blinded to prevent it. Let it be based on family income only. In Australia university admissions are based pretty much solely on one number [1] that represents your high school results (unless you didn't go to high school in Australia), plus bonus points if you are disadvantaged (for which race is not relevant unless you are an indigenous Australian or Torres S…

The Australian National University, headed by the Nobel Prize winning Brian Schmidt is going to change their admissions policy to be more like the US. http://theconversation.com/anus-new-entrance-criteria-wont-d... Amongst Australian academics there is a push to change ATAR allegedly because it reflects socio-economic status (SES) too much. https://theconversation.com/should-we-scrap-the-atar-what-ar... Andrew Norton…

Replacing ATAR with more holistic admissions is like the campaign to get rid of the GRE in graduate admissions, a combination of the ignorant and venal. The well connected, rich and prestigious will get ahead just fine in a system where academic merit is not the one and only measure.

Amusing that ANU is changing to keep out Asians the same way the Ivy League did to keep out Jews.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#55

Post by rdtsc » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 6:54 AM UTC

TTPrograms wrote: post #41

rdtsc wrote: post #15

The linked report (exhibit A) is interesting to read: http://samv91khoyt2i553a2t1s05i-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-c... It would seem at first that Harvard wants to help poor students and race just happens to be a proxy for socioeconomic status, but it turns out that's not what they are doing: > Harvard’s preferential treatment of African-American and Hispanic applicants is not the result of efforts to achieve socioeco…

Is that controlled for measures of merit? Or is that the accidental effect of correlation between ex. academic performance and socioeconomic status?

They build a succession of models each one in the sequence with more controls than the previous. As examples see tables B.6.1 and B.7.1. I think merit would fall under the 2nd model (SAT scores, academic index, GPA, ...).

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#56

Post by randyrand » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 6:58 AM UTC

> "It is incorrect to call it “racism,”

Citation needed.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#57

Post by skookumchuck » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 6:59 AM UTC

throwawayjava wrote: post #14

tomdell wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not the argument. Tests are written by people who talk a certain way, in a way that is easier to process for people who talk the same way. Different communities use different language, and this is reflected in how quickly different students process the problems on standardized tests. There's also the issue that standardized test scores are higher for students who have the time and encouragement to study for t…

The diversity thing is mostly a red-herring. Admissions offers are abandoning standardized tests because of Goodhart's Law. > for students who have the time and encouragement to study for them It's not just time and encouragement. SAT/ACT prep is serious industry. $100+/hr tutoring sessions. Owners of good SAT prep businesses can make six or seven figures in a few months. And good prep courses really do work. Tests,…

There are SAT prep books in the thrift store for a dollar. Nobody is shut out because of poverty.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#58

Post by skookumchuck » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 7:02 AM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #45

colordrops wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it is case that native speakers of a specific dialect score higher, it's not clear that the result is due to language barriers, and could be a correlation with socio-economic groups. That is the point of bringing up non-native speakers doing well, as the test is not even their native language, which is certainly a greater disadvantage than a different dialect.

So you don't think that there is an advantage gained by being a native speaker of a dialect a test is written in? The academic consensus is that there is. The clearest example is that vocabulary is a large part of most standardized tests and native speakers have larger vocabularies than proficient L2 speakers.

How about the math part? Besides, if I was on a college admissions board, I'd give consideration to an L2 speaker if his verbal scores were unusually below his math scores.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#59

Post by skookumchuck » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 7:05 AM UTC

prakashnu wrote: post #40

tzs wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a fairly long interview on NPR today with the Director of Admissions of University of Chicago on this today. From the part I heard, a big reason given was that you can significantly improve your SAT/ACT scores by taking test prep courses, which reduces the reliability of the test. They believe that can get a better idea of an applicant's academic potential from their grades.

There is definitely a cultural divide. Among most of my white and Latino classmates, the SAT was treated like an IQ test: you just show up and see what happens. For better or worse, this is probably what colleges originally intended, for the SATs to be legal and non-controversial proxy for IQ. My Asian and Indian classmates treated it like any other test, something you can study for and improve at. They expected that…

Studying hard certainly gives one an unfair advantage :-)

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#60

Post by yashevde » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 7:09 AM UTC

"A group that claims Harvard puts quotas on Asian-American applicants contends the university scores them higher than students of other races on academics and extracurricular activities but ranks them lowest in a "personal" category covering such traits as likability and 'attractive to be with.' " - https://cnn.it/2ldoPd1

That last parameter - "attractive to be with" - is aggravating. What is this, a matchmaking institution or something? It's just bizarre that they would have the gall to feature engineer that..