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Asian-American admissions at Harvard

marginalrevolution.com

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Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#41

Post by TTPrograms »

rdtsc wrote: post #15

The linked report (exhibit A) is interesting to read: http://samv91khoyt2i553a2t1s05i-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-c... It would seem at first that Harvard wants to help poor students and race just happens to be a proxy for socioeconomic status, but it turns out that's not what they are doing: > Harvard’s preferential treatment of African-American and Hispanic applicants is not the result of efforts to achieve socioeco…

Is that controlled for measures of merit? Or is that the accidental effect of correlation between ex. academic performance and socioeconomic status?

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#42

Post by fiblye »

learc83 wrote: post #20
fiblye wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The most explicit example is that ancestry correlates with whether you are a native speaker of the dialect the test was written in. What kind of absurd "argument" is this? If you're testing for a university in America, the expectation is that not only will the test be in English, but the vast bulk of your university courses. And Asian Americans, despite a large number coming from families of non-English speakers, st…

So you disagree with the assertion that native speakers of a specific dialect score higher than non-native speakers of that dialect--all else being equal? Or did you just decide you'd rather argue with something I didn't write?

All languages are going to have dialects. Trying to eliminate that "bias" is going to just result in removing language entirely from exams, unless we decide to make tests for every single test taker. But the point of standardization is to have a solid, uniform goal for all to work towards. And if you're applying to an American university and you have difficulty with what's considered standard American English, you will have far worse troubles in university.

And again, people from families of non-native speakers do well. Generally better than people who only have family who speak the native language and dialect.

That people think it's discrimination is quite clearly silly. :)

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#43

Post by markdown »

ajross wrote: post #36
doubleunplussed wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Affirmative action has biases of its own, should be blinded to prevent it. Let it be based on family income only. In Australia university admissions are based pretty much solely on one number [1] that represents your high school results (unless you didn't go to high school in Australia), plus bonus points if you are disadvantaged (for which race is not relevant unless you are an indigenous Australian or Torres S…

> race is not relevant unless you are an indigenous Australian or Torres Strait islander So... race is relevant, then? I mean, that's a pretty big "unless".

Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders make up only 3% of the Australian population, so it's not that big.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#44

Post by prakashnu »

throw1471 wrote: post #11

If Harvard admission criteria leave out the best applicants to other colleges, and they go on to create powerful companies like Google in large number, will Harvard’s prestige decrease despite continued support from the elites? Doing very well in tech entrepreneurship needs intelligence more than great personality and political connections (they should be above a level but you don’t need a very high level of them). P…

Edit: I read the article, and it makes sense that colleges are seeking to maximize their future revenue stream.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#45

Post by learc83 »

colordrops wrote: post #39
learc83 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you disagree with the assertion that native speakers of a specific dialect score higher than non-native speakers of that dialect--all else being equal? Or did you just decide you'd rather argue with something I didn't write?

Even if it is case that native speakers of a specific dialect score higher, it's not clear that the result is due to language barriers, and could be a correlation with socio-economic groups. That is the point of bringing up non-native speakers doing well, as the test is not even their native language, which is certainly a greater disadvantage than a different dialect.

So you don't think that there is an advantage gained by being a native speaker of a dialect a test is written in?

The academic consensus is that there is.

The clearest example is that vocabulary is a large part of most standardized tests and native speakers have larger vocabularies than proficient L2 speakers.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#46

Post by learc83 »

fiblye wrote: post #42
learc83 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you disagree with the assertion that native speakers of a specific dialect score higher than non-native speakers of that dialect--all else being equal? Or did you just decide you'd rather argue with something I didn't write?

All languages are going to have dialects. Trying to eliminate that "bias" is going to just result in removing language entirely from exams, unless we decide to make tests for every single test taker. But the point of standardization is to have a solid, uniform goal for all to work towards. And if you're applying to an American university and you have difficulty with what's considered standard American English, you wi…

It sounds like you really want to be arguing with something other than what I'm writing, so you've just decided to make that happen.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#47

Post by fiblye »

slantyyz wrote: post #35
DuskStar wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My high school graduating class (~15 of the ~250 were "Valedictorians" thanks to grade inflation and a lack of a weighting system; they all had 4.0s) says differently. This was in an inner city public school, mind you.

As a non-American, I always found the GPA system a little strange. In high school, our marks were always scores out of 100.

As someone who's moved between states and cities all across America, GPA really should be dumped for system like that.

I've lived in schools where an A/4.00's average score was 90-100 and I lived in another school where it ranged from 95-100. 3.00 would be from 80-89 at the one school and 90-94 at the other.

From raw GPA data, students who had a 90% average would look great if they graduated from the first school, but just OK if they graduated from the latter school. And I've had friends that went to schools that had max possible GPAs of 5.0.

It's a mess.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#48

Post by throw1471 »

prakashnu wrote: post #44
throw1471 wrote: post #11

If Harvard admission criteria leave out the best applicants to other colleges, and they go on to create powerful companies like Google in large number, will Harvard’s prestige decrease despite continued support from the elites? Doing very well in tech entrepreneurship needs intelligence more than great personality and political connections (they should be above a level but you don’t need a very high level of them). P…

Edit: I read the article, and it makes sense that colleges are seeking to maximize their future revenue stream.

Note my last sentence above.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#49

Post by sien »

doubleunplussed wrote: post #25
rdtsc wrote: post #15

The linked report (exhibit A) is interesting to read: http://samv91khoyt2i553a2t1s05i-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-c... It would seem at first that Harvard wants to help poor students and race just happens to be a proxy for socioeconomic status, but it turns out that's not what they are doing: > Harvard’s preferential treatment of African-American and Hispanic applicants is not the result of efforts to achieve socioeco…

Yep. Affirmative action has biases of its own, should be blinded to prevent it. Let it be based on family income only. In Australia university admissions are based pretty much solely on one number [1] that represents your high school results (unless you didn't go to high school in Australia), plus bonus points if you are disadvantaged (for which race is not relevant unless you are an indigenous Australian or Torres S…

The Australian National University, headed by the Nobel Prize winning Brian Schmidt is going to change their admissions policy to be more like the US.

http://theconversation.com/anus-new-entrance-criteria-wont-d...

Amongst Australian academics there is a push to change ATAR allegedly because it reflects socio-economic status (SES) too much.

https://theconversation.com/should-we-scrap-the-atar-what-ar...

Andrew Norton, a researcher on academic policy points out however, that ATAR is a very good predictor for success at University.

https://andrewnorton.net.au/2018/06/14/does-atar-measure-mor...

FWIW having been through the Australian university system and having worked at US universities it seems that the Australian system actually rates pretty well. We don't have researchers of the quality of institutions that pay a huge amount but there is far less grade inflation (really compression) than in US universities because you're graded on a curve in the end. In other words, only 5% or whatever of a subject are expected to get HDs (As in US terms).

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#50

Post by learc83 »

SatvikBeri wrote: post #34
throwawayjava wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The diversity thing is mostly a red-herring. Admissions offers are abandoning standardized tests because of Goodhart's Law. > for students who have the time and encouragement to study for them It's not just time and encouragement. SAT/ACT prep is serious industry. $100+/hr tutoring sessions. Owners of good SAT prep businesses can make six or seven figures in a few months. And good prep courses really do work. Tests,…

The research suggests SAT test prep has an effect of about one seventh of a standard deviation – about 50 points out of 2400[1]. That's significant but not huge. Most of the perception of large gains comes from the fact that people do better as they get older with or without coaching. (None of the research is great, but better than nothing.) [1]: https://www.jefftk.com/p/sat-coaching-what-effect-size

The College Board released new results in 2017 showing a more than 50 point increase out of 1600 versus students who didn't practice.

This was with just 20 hours of practice. Many high achieving students practice for 5+ hours per week.

South Korean cram school style 2-3 hours per day is in a completely different league than a standard SAT prep course, but much of the research that shows no result counts them the same.

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