Asian-American admissions at Harvard • Hacker News Board

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#31

Post by slantyyz » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 6:00 AM UTC

fooker wrote: post #21

slantyyz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true for getting into undergraduate programs, but when it comes to graduate programs, dentistry, medical, law schools etc, I believe we still do use the same standardized tests as in the USA.

For grad school, GRE and the other tests exist to filter out obviously unmotivated candidates. So, a good GRE score can not get you in with any certainty, but a bad one can disqualify you.

I think it depends. When I wrote the GMAT (albeit in 1992), a good score would get you into most Canadian business schools even if you had mediocre marks.

My recollection of the GMAT's difficulty was that any high school grad with an A average could easily score higher than the 80 percentile on the test. While I was happy my result gave me the ability to choose which business school I wanted to go to (my marks, while not bad, were also nothing to brag about), I also think the GMAT was a useless selection criterion.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#32

Post by DuskStar » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 6:03 AM UTC

hammock wrote: post #28

DuskStar wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My high school graduating class (~15 of the ~250 were "Valedictorians" thanks to grade inflation and a lack of a weighting system; they all had 4.0s) says differently. This was in an inner city public school, mind you.

Admissions officers know individual high schools, and the different grading systems. They can separate the bullshit for the most part

In other words, if you're from a shitty high school (or even a "best in the county" high school, if it's a unexceptional county) you're shit out of luck - because now the admissions officers will just reject everyone from that school out of hand, no matter their grades.

Objective standards can really help people without the connections to succeed otherwise.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#33

Post by wallace_f » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 6:07 AM UTC

gnodar wrote: post #26

For those interested in Harvard's point of view: https://www.harvard.edu/president/news/2018/defending-divers... https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/diverse-education

I like how Harvard sings praises of opportunity and diversity from ivory towers while literally discussing their will to hold up barriers to entry to education.

There's no good reason to hold education hostage. The goal should be to create as much opportunity as possible.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#34

Post by SatvikBeri » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 6:09 AM UTC

throwawayjava wrote: post #14

tomdell wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not the argument. Tests are written by people who talk a certain way, in a way that is easier to process for people who talk the same way. Different communities use different language, and this is reflected in how quickly different students process the problems on standardized tests. There's also the issue that standardized test scores are higher for students who have the time and encouragement to study for t…

The diversity thing is mostly a red-herring. Admissions offers are abandoning standardized tests because of Goodhart's Law. > for students who have the time and encouragement to study for them It's not just time and encouragement. SAT/ACT prep is serious industry. $100+/hr tutoring sessions. Owners of good SAT prep businesses can make six or seven figures in a few months. And good prep courses really do work. Tests,…

The research suggests SAT test prep has an effect of about one seventh of a standard deviation – about 50 points out of 2400[1]. That's significant but not huge. Most of the perception of large gains comes from the fact that people do better as they get older with or without coaching.

(None of the research is great, but better than nothing.)

[1]: https://www.jefftk.com/p/sat-coaching-what-effect-size

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#35

Post by slantyyz » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 6:11 AM UTC

DuskStar wrote: post #23

tzs wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a fairly long interview on NPR today with the Director of Admissions of University of Chicago on this today. From the part I heard, a big reason given was that you can significantly improve your SAT/ACT scores by taking test prep courses, which reduces the reliability of the test. They believe that can get a better idea of an applicant's academic potential from their grades.

My high school graduating class (~15 of the ~250 were "Valedictorians" thanks to grade inflation and a lack of a weighting system; they all had 4.0s) says differently. This was in an inner city public school, mind you.

As a non-American, I always found the GPA system a little strange. In high school, our marks were always scores out of 100.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#36

Post by ajross » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 6:12 AM UTC

doubleunplussed wrote: post #25

rdtsc wrote: post #15

The linked report (exhibit A) is interesting to read: http://samv91khoyt2i553a2t1s05i-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-c... It would seem at first that Harvard wants to help poor students and race just happens to be a proxy for socioeconomic status, but it turns out that's not what they are doing: > Harvard’s preferential treatment of African-American and Hispanic applicants is not the result of efforts to achieve socioeco…

Yep. Affirmative action has biases of its own, should be blinded to prevent it. Let it be based on family income only. In Australia university admissions are based pretty much solely on one number [1] that represents your high school results (unless you didn't go to high school in Australia), plus bonus points if you are disadvantaged (for which race is not relevant unless you are an indigenous Australian or Torres S…

> race is not relevant unless you are an indigenous Australian or Torres Strait islander

So... race is relevant, then? I mean, that's a pretty big "unless".

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#37

Post by bbddg » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 6:12 AM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #20

fiblye wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The most explicit example is that ancestry correlates with whether you are a native speaker of the dialect the test was written in. What kind of absurd "argument" is this? If you're testing for a university in America, the expectation is that not only will the test be in English, but the vast bulk of your university courses. And Asian Americans, despite a large number coming from families of non-English speakers, st…

So you disagree with the assertion that native speakers of a specific dialect score higher than non-native speakers of that dialect--all else being equal? Or did you just decide you'd rather argue with something I didn't write?

Ignore this person. They're clearly of the mind that diversity is the number one threat to the civilized world, never mind what reality is.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#38

Post by eanzenberg » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 6:15 AM UTC

DuskStar wrote: post #32

hammock wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Admissions officers know individual high schools, and the different grading systems. They can separate the bullshit for the most part

In other words, if you're from a shitty high school (or even a "best in the county" high school, if it's a unexceptional county) you're shit out of luck - because now the admissions officers will just reject everyone from that school out of hand, no matter their grades. Objective standards can really help people without the connections to succeed otherwise.

That's the literal goal of the SAT. A standardized test across all schools.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#39

Post by colordrops » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 6:17 AM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #20

fiblye wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The most explicit example is that ancestry correlates with whether you are a native speaker of the dialect the test was written in. What kind of absurd "argument" is this? If you're testing for a university in America, the expectation is that not only will the test be in English, but the vast bulk of your university courses. And Asian Americans, despite a large number coming from families of non-English speakers, st…

So you disagree with the assertion that native speakers of a specific dialect score higher than non-native speakers of that dialect--all else being equal? Or did you just decide you'd rather argue with something I didn't write?

Even if it is case that native speakers of a specific dialect score higher, it's not clear that the result is due to language barriers, and could be a correlation with socio-economic groups. That is the point of bringing up non-native speakers doing well, as the test is not even their native language, which is certainly a greater disadvantage than a different dialect.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#40

Post by prakashnu » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 6:20 AM UTC

tzs wrote: post #19

supernova87a wrote: post #2

There was just a story today in the news about the University of Chicago completely doing away with requiring SAT/ACT for admissions. It seems like we're bending over backwards to toss out any kind of test or criterion that could be perceived as discriminatory. With one stated goal to make the student body mirror the general population. But that is a flawed premise. Is it even the role of higher education to remedy t…

There was a fairly long interview on NPR today with the Director of Admissions of University of Chicago on this today. From the part I heard, a big reason given was that you can significantly improve your SAT/ACT scores by taking test prep courses, which reduces the reliability of the test. They believe that can get a better idea of an applicant's academic potential from their grades.

There is definitely a cultural divide. Among most of my white and Latino classmates, the SAT was treated like an IQ test: you just show up and see what happens. For better or worse, this is probably what colleges originally intended, for the SATs to be legal and non-controversial proxy for IQ. My Asian and Indian classmates treated it like any other test, something you can study for and improve at. They expected that they could boost their scores hundreds of points between their PSATs and SATs by taking classes and studying hard.