Study: Today’s dads are engaging more with their kids • Hacker News Board

Re: Study: Today’s dads are engaging more with their kids

#111

Post by TangoTrotFox » Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 3:02 PM UTC

Angostura wrote: post #76

TangoTrotFox wrote: post #57

Something I find bemusing are the never ending slew of studies that aim to evangelize 'new ideas' in parenting and child rearing contrasted against the negative changes in outcomes of children and young adults in the US today. Children and young adults in the US today are, compared to decades past, suffering sharp spikes in mental illness, obesity, as well as performing relatively worse academically and even exhibiti…

" suffering sharp spikes in mental illness, obesity, as well as performing relatively worse academically and even exhibiting lower average IQ" There's been really quite a lot of research into these kinds of thing. There is no doubt that in many respects the environment that kids are being bought up in today is more stressful, distracting, uncertain, unstable etc. I don't think you have to look at changes in parenting…

What!? Kids in earlier times, even as recently as the 80s grew up in a time where they were constantly facing the very real threat of nuclear annihilation at moment's notice! With nuclear drills only being ended sometime in the 90s. In the 80s the we had a political era that included real assassination attempts on the president, the pope, and more, violent crime was at record highs, and more. Today is more "stressful, distracting, uncertain, unstable, etc" how exactly?

And you're again doing what I think is actually quite dangerous, yet also standard practice in the social sciences. While I think your presumption is wrong, you're assuming that not only is it true but if it were true than it would naturally have a causal explanation for another factor. Yet I think there is an extremely strong argument that your presumption would actually have a causal effect in the exact opposite method of which you imply.

Humanity excels when dealing with crisis. Nearly all of our evolutionary existence has been living in times of great adversity. I think the fact we live in such relative comfort and safety now a days is something may be interacting negatively with our evolutionary wiring (such a hypothesis would even explain things such as 'outrage culture' and internet activism - in lieu of problems, create them!) As I mentioned IQs are decreasing (and literally decreasing - not 'increasing more slowly' towards an asymptotic zero), but this is something that's only happening in the developed world. In the developing world, where lives are still much harder and threats more imminent - IQs continue to increase, academic performance is increasing, and so on. Vietnam for instance, today is ranked 8th in the world in science - as they teach with a per student budget a tiny fraction of ours, even parity adjusted. There are clearly many factors to progress that we seem to just have 0 interest in considering.

Re: Study: Today’s dads are engaging more with their kids

#112

Post by LeifCarrotson » Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 3:07 PM UTC

pcmoney wrote: post #53

I’m a relatively new dad so maybe the novelty just hasn’t worn off but I can’t understand fathers who don’t interact with their kids. I do it as much as I can, it’s the best. Not always easy but always good.

I'm a new dad too, but my father is a 30-year veteran of fatherdom, with the benefit of some new experience as a grandfather thrown in. He and I recently had a heart-to-heart about this. He lamented that he didn't spend more time with me when I was an infant, a toddler, and a kid - he left that to my mother, due to a socially conditioned view of tasks like changing diapers as her responsibility.

He still has an instinct to ask my mother whenever my son needs something, and I remind him "No, Dad, I can cook/bandage/clean/change that. We don't need to ask Grandma to take care of it. Why don't you cook up a few of your famous hamburgers and I'll get the boy ready for dinner?" - and he's still a bit hesitant to watch his grandson when grandma's not home.

But through his hindsight, he agrees that (1) the novelty doesn't wear off, it changes way too fast, (2) do it as much as you can, because time is limited, and (3) it definitely is the best. Though you may get a reprise as a grandparent someday, which is possibly even better because you can send them home with new noisy toys after they've been spoiled and are on a sugar high.

Re: Study: Today’s dads are engaging more with their kids

#113

Post by ameister14 » Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 3:07 PM UTC

ponderatul wrote: post #64

I don't want to take away from the results from the study. But it would be a great area to study the relationship between men and interaction with women, especially those displaying toxic femininity, in the context of fatherhood. Don't know if anyone coined the term toxic femininity, but it should obviously be a field of study, just as toxic masculinity is.

Let's just not use either term.

Re: Study: Today’s dads are engaging more with their kids

#114

Post by watwut » Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 3:07 PM UTC

ravenstine wrote: post #82

watwut wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The practical issue is that men commit suicide more often and it seems like they suffer loneliness more often, especially at later age. The shared struggle only socialization does now work at all when you are sick or in bad situation. They also end up dependent on their wifes for keeping social network, which works until it does not. They also seem to vent their frustration in bigger angry blow ups which harms a.) th…

Is this the fault of men or a largely "feminized" modern environment? In other words, an environment where women are safer than ever(which I fully support) is incidentally one with very few ways for men to form social bonds with each other; there are very few ways for most men to face shared struggles, at least without being told that their arenas are "too aggressive" for women. > The other interesting issue I see is…

If that would be true, men in male dominated jobs and with male dominated hobbies would not had the above problems - but they do.

A lot of suicide is when men retire, get long term unemployed or divorces (divorces are harder on men statistically these days). In two of those you cease to have "shared struggle", but not because women presence caused it. More like, people you knew disappeared. You are not useful to them anymore.

Workers don't share struggle, because most work is about struggle against colllegues, competition and people change jobs often anyway. Combined with working more then 60 hours a week, female presence is hardly the primary reason for lack of long term friendship that sticks as you get unemployed or sick. (I don't think the job should supply socialization, but it does for people working a lot.)

And men like you just described openly challenge those under them in hierarchy, but rarely those higher then them. So, I have reservations about that openness you talk about. It is less about openness and more about never saying you disagree with higher ups in hierarchy and lashing out when perceived lowers disagree or criticize you - because that is interpreted as challenge.

Re: Study: Today’s dads are engaging more with their kids

#115

Post by workinthehead » Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 3:25 PM UTC

amelius wrote: post #73

Hypothesis: Today's dads behave more like kids, compared to previous generations. I mean, 40 year olds dress like teenagers (sneakers, t-shirt, jeans, sometimes a cap), they often have the same hobbies as teenagers (e.g. video gaming), and responsibility is low because there is a high level of social security.

Um, no. Past generations didn't have sneakers, t-shirts, jeans, or video games, and social security is at an all-time low (at least in the US).

Dads in the past were remarkably shitty and it isn't really even clear why.

Re: Study: Today’s dads are engaging more with their kids

#116

Post by workinthehead » Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 3:27 PM UTC

sulam wrote: post #100

to_bpr wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a startup is running on tight runway then female staff getting pregnant could be massively detrimental. In many civilized parts of the world, a female employee getting pregnant will mean disruption during the pregnancy to accommodate doctor's visits and health issues, and then months of paid leave PLUS having to pay to backfill their position with a temp, plus the costs of recruiting and ramping up said temp. That…

I’d like you to try doing a mental exercise and see if you feel okay with what you’ve written here. s/pregnant/cancer/ and then ask yourself if you would feel comfortable inquiring about medical history during the hiring process.

Most people would if it was socially permissible. We're talking about running a business, not a safe space.

Re: Study: Today’s dads are engaging more with their kids

#117

Post by workinthehead » Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 3:30 PM UTC

amyjess wrote: post #99

to_bpr wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a startup is running on tight runway then female staff getting pregnant could be massively detrimental. In many civilized parts of the world, a female employee getting pregnant will mean disruption during the pregnancy to accommodate doctor's visits and health issues, and then months of paid leave PLUS having to pay to backfill their position with a temp, plus the costs of recruiting and ramping up said temp. That…

Honestly, this just fuels my dislike of startups. Startup culture is toxic by nature. My advice is this: companies need to suck it up. We live in a society with rules and laws for a reason. If your business can't exist under those rules and laws, then it doesn't belong in society. Ventures that are detrimental to society simply shouldn't be allowed.

There is a giant, giant disconnect between "following laws" and "detrimental to society to the point where it needs to be forcibly prevented" and it doesn't speak well to your ability to reason that you've conflated the two.

Re: Study: Today’s dads are engaging more with their kids

#118

Post by workinthehead » Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 3:31 PM UTC

koliber wrote: post #72

sjg007 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems weird to discriminate against adoptive parents... I understand the reasoning but seems weird. It would probably be better to have a medical policy applicable to everyone.

I think you are framing it incorrectly as discrimination. If one stretches such an analogy, one could reason that paid sick leave is discriminating against healthy people. Not many people would agree with that one. As you've stated, a sensible medical policy for everyone would be good. I would imagine that Google has a one.

Absolutely I agree that paid sick leave is discriminating against healthy people. If you're going to pay people to not work, everyone should be equally eligible.

Re: Study: Today’s dads are engaging more with their kids

#119

Post by to_bpr » Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 3:46 PM UTC

CalRobert wrote: post #105

to_bpr wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a startup is running on tight runway then female staff getting pregnant could be massively detrimental. In many civilized parts of the world, a female employee getting pregnant will mean disruption during the pregnancy to accommodate doctor's visits and health issues, and then months of paid leave PLUS having to pay to backfill their position with a temp, plus the costs of recruiting and ramping up said temp. That…

"many civilized parts of the world" You should try visiting one of them.

Strive to be better, Robert. This is Reddit-tier content and behaviour, maybe you would be more comfortable staying there?

Re: Study: Today’s dads are engaging more with their kids

#120

Post by to_bpr » Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 3:56 PM UTC

pavel_lishin wrote: post #98

to_bpr wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting point. I don't think behaving more like kids is something confined to dads, or even men as a whole either. It seems modern adults are maturing far more slowly or even showing some signs of regression now. I don't have anything to compare it with, but grown men burning their evenings in front of a games console, playing games aimed at children, and grown women slathering pictures of themselves all over soc…

> I may be bah humbugging here. You are. Two things: 1. How is spending (not burning) an evening in front of the console any worse than spending it in front of the TV? 2. You're painting with a really, really broad brush there. Some grown men play a lot of video games, and some women post a lot on social media, but not all of them do, and in any case, I'm not entirely sure what the problem with socializing online is.

1: I'm not advocating in favour of spending it front of the TV. Both are a waste.

2: The damage being done by social media and the rise in narcissism, toward society at large, towards children and towards mental health, is pretty well documented at this point.