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Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

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Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#931

Post by icedchai »

aaron_m04 wrote: post #901
icedchai wrote: post #812

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worthless, or nearly worthless, options are very, very common. The last options I exercised and did get paid out... but in the end, I didn't even make back enough to make up for the pay cut I took. Financially, I would've been better off taking a different job. At least I "had fun' and "got something" though.

Why the quotes? Did you not have any fun?

The quotes are there because it's basically a cliche. Every startup is "fun", right? Okay, I did actually have fun... at least for the first year or so.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#932

Post by heurist »

billdybas wrote: post #326

I just went through the startup job hunting process as a new-grad. I think many startups have their expectations set too high for the work requirements & compensation they're offering. Many startups want Senior Engineers with several years of experience, and they want people who live in SF. This makes it difficult for new-grads and those who don't live in the Bay Area to get into the startup scene. Many people want t…

I've had mostly negative experiences hiring new grads. So far, even though they were all smart with a lot of potential, they've all demanded more time and money than they were worth and left as soon as they felt any dissatisfaction, no mind or loyalty to the company or mentorship we've provided. They're fully within their rights to do that but it's happened to me enough times that I've decided new grads are not worth my effort right now. And I understand where they're coming from. I treated my first job out of school as a "throwaway" company while I earned experience and worked on establishing my personal life. Do that at a big company where you're a small component, not a startup where everyone relies on everyone else.

Another perspective: startups don't have capacity for mentoring, in most cases. Startups are high-throughput environments and bad design by inexperienced coders (i.e. most new grads) will slow a project down significantly. New grads are often treated as cannon fodder because they can't be used for anything else, and that leads to frustration and burnout. Do you want that? Wouldn't you rather establish your career under an experienced mentor, unlimited resources, a low pressure environment, and a high salary? Most new grads will do best by paying off student loans first, building a base of experience for a couple years, then jumping into startups from there. 2 years of enterprise experience at a company with a strong engineering culture (not even the "elite" ones) will make you infinitely more valuable to a startup than trying to break in right out of school.

My two cents. Not all new grads are the same :)

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#933

Post by seige »

This is a big topic with plenty to be said but to synthesize some concrete ways YC can eliminate the cons:

- Raise equity ownership if possible.

- Raise the 90 day option exercise period.

- Be pro-actively transparent about the financial math.

There is a counter argument here that more transparency could lead to morale issues but most mature EEs know that they are rolling a dice and upfront honesty works wonders. The worse thing for the eco-system is the feeling of getting duped.

- Ruthlessly support EEs in growing their careers.

If your hands are tied w.r.t giving financial upside, at least be a champion for personal growth for EEs. As a founder, you get tons of opportunity to receive mentorship. Send that elevator down, every time you get a chance to. YC can easily provide mentorship for EE cohort, if it can do it for Founders.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#934

Post by goatherders »

CamTin wrote: post #799
goatherders wrote: post #731

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone can start a business, and anyone should. The things you mentioned - "pivoting" "overcoming powerful rivals" - goodness. How about simply starting a business that earns more money then it spends. Do that and you will learn most any lesson you need to know about being a "founder."

The economics of internet-scale software businesses make this harder than opening a hardware store and selling nails and rope for more than they cost from the wholesaler. It often does require lots of risk capital. If you don't have it, you need a rich partner who does. If you don't know any rich people that want to go into business with you, you need to employ people who provide this service at a price -- and often…

I disagree with your entire post. It has never been easier to start q business online or otherwise. It has never been easier to start a business with virtually no investment or financial stake. It has never been easier to learn how to start a business in most any field and never been easier to find customers.

I'm not sure what you are defining as risk or difficulty. I can list a dozen day-one-profitable businesses right here that a person could start before tomorrow morning for less than $100 investment.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#935

Post by webmaven »

sharemywin wrote: post #117
snowmaker wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an interesting idea. We've talked about ways that we could help create more job stability for people joining a YC company.

When I was a consultant, I liked two things about my company. I was paid by the hour, which kept my company honest. I was paid when I was "on the beach"(bench), but I was expected to train and get tech certifications

Might want to rephrase the 2nd bit, if you're trying to conceal which BigConsultingCo you worked for.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#936

Post by webmaven »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #132
sharemywin wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a consultant, I liked two things about my company. I was paid by the hour, which kept my company honest. I was paid when I was "on the beach"(bench), but I was expected to train and get tech certifications

Interestingly, I strongly prefer not being paid by the hour. I find time-clocking incredibly irritating, as I may be inspired to a solution or want to fix something outside of hours, which is pretty common for me. And similarly, I don't want to feel bad about if I am doing something wrong or not the most efficiently, but still charging full price for that time. Possibly the most irritating thing for me in times I was…

The occasional lack of efficiency/productivity should be reflected in your billable rate, that is, the rate should reflect your level of (relevant) skill, any specialized knowledge, and mean productivity, not max.

Then there is no problem with just billing the spent hours without any fudging one way or the other.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#937

Post by webmaven »

RangerScience wrote: post #906
webmaven wrote: post #900

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the guy running the panel "didn't want individual contributors". That may be a reasonable requirement, depending on the panel topic. But note: Plenty of EEs aren't individual contributors! An EE can be a "team lead" for example. Basically if you have any responsibility for directing or managing other people, you are already not an IC.

> That may be a reasonable requirement, depending on the panel topic. Hmm. I really don't see how. That's a bit like saying that because you work in Java, you can't talk about Ruby, or AWS, or Scrum, or skydiving. This really seems like the sort of thing that you "opt in" rather than "opt out" - you're qualified to talk on a panel if you are X, rather than being disqualified if you are Y. Can you think of any topics…

Post-mortems, one-on-ones, dealing with toxic team members, adopting "Continuous X" practices, "Your team just added it's first woman engineer. Now what?", etc.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#938

Post by CamTin »

goatherders wrote: post #934
CamTin wrote: post #799

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economics of internet-scale software businesses make this harder than opening a hardware store and selling nails and rope for more than they cost from the wholesaler. It often does require lots of risk capital. If you don't have it, you need a rich partner who does. If you don't know any rich people that want to go into business with you, you need to employ people who provide this service at a price -- and often…

I disagree with your entire post. It has never been easier to start q business online or otherwise. It has never been easier to start a business with virtually no investment or financial stake. It has never been easier to learn how to start a business in most any field and never been easier to find customers. I'm not sure what you are defining as risk or difficulty. I can list a dozen day-one-profitable businesses ri…

That would be great! What are they?

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#939

Post by krageon »

goatherders wrote: post #934
CamTin wrote: post #799

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economics of internet-scale software businesses make this harder than opening a hardware store and selling nails and rope for more than they cost from the wholesaler. It often does require lots of risk capital. If you don't have it, you need a rich partner who does. If you don't know any rich people that want to go into business with you, you need to employ people who provide this service at a price -- and often…

I disagree with your entire post. It has never been easier to start q business online or otherwise. It has never been easier to start a business with virtually no investment or financial stake. It has never been easier to learn how to start a business in most any field and never been easier to find customers. I'm not sure what you are defining as risk or difficulty. I can list a dozen day-one-profitable businesses ri…

You could start them with little investment, but your time is also worth (a lot of) money. That's not coming from anywhere if you work for any startup, including your own. You might make that money back later, you might not. In the end that is part of your investment and it's a gamble. If you do not have the financial cushion required to sustain you for the amount of months it needs to become profitable for you, you cannot do it.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#940

Post by krageon »

_cs2017_ wrote: post #758
acconrad wrote: post #129

I was the first engineer at a TechStars startup that did have a successful exit (I was there about 5 years before the exit). If there is something I want YC to know, it's this: You helped create the culture of founder empowerment. You have the power to evolve that narrative to those that sacrifice as early employees. Tell the world that early employees deserve a lot more equity. Tell the world that early employees co…

Maybe engineers are more replaceable than founders? That would explain why founders walk away with a lot more cash and credit. After all, there are a lot of good engineers who probably would do a good job as an early employee. And relatively few people who have the vision, motivation, and skill to create a successful company. That said, I sometimes feel that being a successful founder has less to do with skill and mo…

As an engineer of middling competence (I don't do poorly, but there are people smarter than me), I think you're wrong. The reason engineers receive less than they're worth by and large is because A. they cannot negotiate very well and B. they do not know their own worth. If you combine these two with some idealism, which is the only real reason you'd work for a startup (high-risk, low-reward work - if it's not for ideals you have no reason to do it), you get a prime exploitative opportunity for any employer.
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