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The End of Video Coding?

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Re: The End of Video Coding?

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes entire sense to me: When you're going to stream the episode of Stranger things to 15million people, who really cares what the one-time cost to encode is? Surely you'd take algorithmic complexity that was 100x or even 1000x the baseline if it provided you with even a few kB of bandwidth savings?

You still care, since at some point the cost of the extra encoder-hours used is going to outpace the bandwidth savings. I'm guessing she mentally assumed 'at no bandwidth savings, how much margin do we have?', since the amount saved wasn't ever quantified.

There are a couple of things that make Netflix somewhat unique.

1) They have a fairly limited catalog (contrast with the constant ingestion of new content by Youtube, for example)

2) The cheapest way for them to ensure they have sufficient capacity to handle peak loads leaves them with a lot of extra compute during non-peak times. That excess compute is essentially free.

Re: The End of Video Coding?

#52
post #39
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that’s true, that’s pretty unfortunate. YouTube does 1440p@60fps now.

Yep, but YouTube doesn't require full DRM support.

Requiring protocol level DRM to be included in video/music streaming technologies has always baffled me.

What's the point? Even with theoretically perfect protocol level DRM, the consumer eventually has to be able to see/hear the protected content. If the frames of the video are displayed on screen, and the audio played through the speakers, the output can be recorded and preserved, period.

Do the people in charge of making these decisions not realize that whatever convoluted DRM technologies they pay to be developed and implemented will always be defeated by a $30 camcorder from the 90s?

Re: The End of Video Coding?

#53
>To address the disconnect between researchers in academia and standardization and the industry users of video coding technology,

This annoys me quite a bit. Because then it list out the so called large-scale video encoding from Facebook, Twitter, and Youtube. As if Video Encoding are only done by OTT providers. And the Video Encode from iPhone ( Consumers ) TV broadcast ( the good old content distributor ), livestream of events from Sports to Olympics.. etc doesn't matter. It is a very Silicon Valley mentality, and shown in AOM / AV1. After all they are creating their own codec for their own use. While other industry codec organisation will have to take care many "edge" use case.

>So how will we get to deliver HD quality Stranger Things at 100 kbps for the mobile user in rural Philippines? How will we stream a perfectly crisp 4K-HDR-WCG episode of Chef’s Table without requiring a 25 Mbps broadband connection?

It is interesting this 100kbps bitrate and rural Philippines comes up. Because this is the exact same quote from Amazon's video specialist Ben Waggoner mentioned on Doom9.

Shouldn't we be a little more realistic with the bitrate? We have 20 years of experience and research and yet we still don't have a single Audio codec ( two dimensions ) that could perform better then MP3 128Kbps at half the bitrate. Opus only manage to slightly edge it out at 96kbps, and that is with selected samples. There is only so far we can go, 100Kbps is barely enough for Audio. And we have Massive MIMO, and 5G, both will bring immense capacity increase to current Network. There is so much in the pipeline to further increase efficiency, capacity, lower latency, cost, and power. It is a little hard to think designing a 100Kbps for Video.

Currently Youtube streams 1080p AVC @ ~2.2Mbps. Which seems to be fine with most people already, especially on Computer / Tablet or Smartphone Screen Size. HEVC can probably do similar quality with 1.5Mbps. VVC should be aiming at below 1Mbps. Netflix is doing 15Mbps 4K Streaming with HEVC ( And people are complaining about quality already, I have no idea why I don't watch Netflix) VVC should really be aiming at better quality with 8Mbps. We should aim we specific bitrate and resolution with Real World Encoder as anchor, and specific quality to achieve.

Re: The End of Video Coding?

#54
post #15
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no shortage of new ideas for video encoding. The post is welcoming both new ideas and encouraging more new ideas rather than being any kind of summary of current tech.

I guess there might be no shortage in general, but there are few which are publicly developed with the aim to make free codecs. Which other efforts are there besides Daala?

All the wavelet based codec shown good results in lab or test, but in practice they are extremely hard to tune and the engineering hours that needs to put in before it being variable is far beyond any one single company are willing to invest.

I think Daala will likely live in AV2. But let wait for AV1 to go out first before they work on that. As the promised bit stream frozen still hasn't happened.

Re: The End of Video Coding?

#55
post #10

I see this: In the ITU-T VCEG and ISO/IEC MPEG standardization world, the Joint Video Experts Team (JVET) was formed in October 2017 to develop a new video standard that has capabilities beyond HEVC. The recently-concluded Call for Proposals attracted an impressive number of 32 institutions from industry and academia, with a combined 22 submissions. The new standard, which will be called Versatile Video Coding (VVC),…

Well, they are the same group, or same organisation that created the group for HEVC.

Re: The End of Video Coding?

#57
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow! Even at my monitor's 1024x768, the 8k video looks amazing! So much better than 1080p! Something something nyquist something

There is already an 8k display on the market.

SMPTE recommend a viewing angle of 30 degrees, which matches THX (26-36).

Assuming you have 20/20 vision, You won't be able to tell the distance between 4K and higher unless your screen fills more than about 40 degrees, in which case you are losing detail at the edges.

An 8K monitor on your desk may make sense -- if you're say 3' away from it and it's say 60", you'll start noticing a difference between 4k and 8k, however you will be focused on one area of the screen, rather than the entire screen.

Even with 4K, for most people watching television/films the main (only) benefits are HDR and increased temporal resolution (60p vs 60i/30p)

All the 8K stuff I've seen comes with 22.2 sound to help direct your vision to the area of the screen wanted. It certainly has applications in room sized screens where there are multiple events going on, and you can choose what to focus on (sport for example).

If you were to buy a 32" 8K screen - say the UP3218K, about 28" wide, to get the benefit of going above 4K you would need to be sat within about 30 inches. At 30" you would have the screen filling about 50 degrees of vision. Even an immersive film should only be 40 degrees.

Re: The End of Video Coding?

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes entire sense to me: When you're going to stream the episode of Stranger things to 15million people, who really cares what the one-time cost to encode is? Surely you'd take algorithmic complexity that was 100x or even 1000x the baseline if it provided you with even a few kB of bandwidth savings?

Bandwidth is extremely cheap, so 15 million by a few kB is just 15+ GB, which costs pennies in terms of bandwidth. That doesn't buy you that much encoding compute time.

Netflix isn't necessarily trying to reduce the bandwidth on _their_ side. They want to be able to deliver higher quality to users on lower bandwidth connections. The better that goes, the larger their prospective customer base.

Re: The End of Video Coding?

#59
post #52
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, but YouTube doesn't require full DRM support.

Requiring protocol level DRM to be included in video/music streaming technologies has always baffled me. What's the point? Even with theoretically perfect protocol level DRM, the consumer eventually has to be able to see/hear the protected content. If the frames of the video are displayed on screen, and the audio played through the speakers, the output can be recorded and preserved, period. Do the people in charge of…

They don't care because once the signal hits analog the quality will be much lower.

Re: The End of Video Coding?

#60
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You still care, since at some point the cost of the extra encoder-hours used is going to outpace the bandwidth savings. I'm guessing she mentally assumed 'at no bandwidth savings, how much margin do we have?', since the amount saved wasn't ever quantified.

There are a couple of things that make Netflix somewhat unique. 1) They have a fairly limited catalog (contrast with the constant ingestion of new content by Youtube, for example) 2) The cheapest way for them to ensure they have sufficient capacity to handle peak loads leaves them with a lot of extra compute during non-peak times. That excess compute is essentially free.

Re #1: It's not catalog size that matters; it's more like revenue per minute of video, or views per minute of video

Re #2: This is a fairly standard batch-vs-online compute mix tradeoff faced by large enterprises.

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