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Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

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Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#111

Post by j_baker »

jasonkester wrote: post #81

I graduated from high school in 1989, at the very apex of 80's butt-rock heavy metal. My school had probably 200 guys with ratted out long hair, most of whom owned a guitar and dreamed of being a rock star. Of that group, probably 50 played well enough to do a creditable "Eruption" solo, and there were half a dozen guys who could get on stage at an assembly and keep the entire school entertained for 10 minutes. Lots…

Yes, dropping out of college to start a company is risky. However, if you can't handle that risk are you sure you can handle the risk of starting a startup?

Don't get me wrong, you're making a good argument for staying in college. However, I think it's hardly a prima facie case for staying in school.

Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#112

Post by onan_barbarian »

jasonkester wrote: post #81

I graduated from high school in 1989, at the very apex of 80's butt-rock heavy metal. My school had probably 200 guys with ratted out long hair, most of whom owned a guitar and dreamed of being a rock star. Of that group, probably 50 played well enough to do a creditable "Eruption" solo, and there were half a dozen guys who could get on stage at an assembly and keep the entire school entertained for 10 minutes. Lots…

You forget that you can have the best of both worlds: you can join a startup and become a Rock Star Programmer. Possibly also some sort of Ninja!

More seriously: nothing wrong with taking a swing.

The main problem is not the people who take risks to begin with. It's the ones who don't know when to quit and carry on a failed plan to the point of turning their lives into a parody - the difference between a couple years off and a decade spent mucking around getting nowhere.

Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#113

Post by nandemo »

samatman wrote: post #100
kyro wrote: post #25

It's funny, because even people like Zuckerberg eventually had to pull in experts with extensive educational backgrounds to help in developing the company. And if you look at any billion dollar company, those with degrees have played and continue to play a critical role in said company's growth and success. While I do agree that with a field like computer science, real world experience rather than educational backgro…

While this is true, and I respect your decision to go to medical school, consider this: In Japan, which has the best life expectancy of any nation, doctors are trained for three years after high school. That's it. I believe a case can be made that the entire pre-medical curriculum is a scam, one that wastes years of life from some of our most promising young people and rakes in billions of education expenses that dri…

Medical school in Japan lasts 6 years, not 3.

It's true that you can apply to medical school straight out of high school in Japan, but that's also true for many (most?) other countries.

Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#114

Post by asdaqqp »

Mc_Big_G wrote: post #95
jasonkester wrote: post #81

I graduated from high school in 1989, at the very apex of 80's butt-rock heavy metal. My school had probably 200 guys with ratted out long hair, most of whom owned a guitar and dreamed of being a rock star. Of that group, probably 50 played well enough to do a creditable "Eruption" solo, and there were half a dozen guys who could get on stage at an assembly and keep the entire school entertained for 10 minutes. Lots…

I was one of those guys and if I hadn't given it a shot, I would have regretted it for the rest of my life. I learned some hard lessons and then went to college and got a bachelor's in engineering. Okay, so I put off financial security for a few years, but I have a lot of great memories and the satisfaction of knowing I had the balls to try. No regrets. From the condescending tone of your post, it seems you think you…

There is difference between starting a credible business (not another Zynga or Posterous ) and starting a rock band.

Good busineses require a lot of knowledge about engineering and world in general. Everyone here recommending dropping out of college is clearly delusional. What the fuck a freshman knows, even if a student is computer genius, college is essential to learn about how world works. To all the folks who are commenting like stupid about how they learnt nothing from college, I suggest them to find few people who couldn't go to college and talk to them.

And Oh btw Steve Jobs dropped out because he didnt have money and Zukerberg studied at Exter and Harvard, similar with Bill Gates. When they both dropped out, they had good connections as well as parents capable of bank rolling them.

If you are a an 18 year of HTML CSS RUBY PHP educated kid, please dont listen to this crap. Go to a good school and get a degree in engineering and minor in business or economics.

Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#115

Post by WalterBright »

mayank wrote: post #75
palish wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how [1. how to learn 2. organized methods of thinking about problems 3. how to separate truth from crap 4. how to break down large problems into solvable small ones] can be learned effectively through self study. Perhaps you should break down that problem into solvable small ones? Then you could determine how I was able to teach myself each of those with only a high school education.

> Perhaps you should break down that problem into solvable small ones? Then you could determine how I was able to teach myself each of those with only a high school education. This is something I've heard a lot. I don't mean to disparage your accomplishments, but how exactly do you know what you're missing with a college/grad school education? It's fallacious to think that a college education will instantly make you…

Pretty much everyone believes they are organized thinkers, can separate truth from crap, etc. I certainly thought so when I entered college. After 4 years of Caltech, though, I emerged with the realization that I didn't know much about any of that before. While maybe I still am not an organized thinker, I could tell that I had gotten a great deal better at it.

Additionally, when I work with others, even though they have college degrees, I can often see the disorganized thinking and lack of problem solving skills.

I see this a lot in the programming world, for example. Many programmers, when confronted a bug, flail about essentially at random hoping to get lucky and fix it. If you show them how to approach finding the problem in an organized manner, it's like you're speaking a foreign language to them (or at least I'm a very bad teacher, which is entirely possible).

For another example, I once had the job of figuring out the force involved when a screw drive ran full tilt into its stops. I worked out the math, etc., coming up with a formula for the force, plugged the numbers in, and got the answer. My colleague nearby (with a 4 year engineering degree as well) asked me in amazement "what book did you get that formula from?"

If you're an EE, and you carry around a card that has printed on it V=IR, R=V/I, I=V/R then you do not know how to solve problems - you learned how to formula plug.

Some people can learn all this stuff from self-study. The risk with self-study, however, is that you may not be aware of where the gaps in your skills are, especially if they are difficult to quantify like "organized thinking" or "problem solving skills" or "ability to separate truth from crap".

Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#116

Post by WalterBright »

srgseg wrote: post #63
WalterBright wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I benefited greatly from the courses I took at Caltech. What I learned was: 1. how to learn 2. organized methods of thinking about problems 3. how to separate truth from crap 4. how to break down large problems into solvable small ones I'm not sure how these can be learned effectively through self study.

Interesting, please could you elaborate on the specific courses/experiences which helped you learn these things (esp no. 3) My experience of a CS degree was being drowned in information but not anything nearly as useful as that which you've noted.

None of the courses were labeled with "organized thinking" or "separating truth from crap". Learning that stuff was a side effect of probably 80% of the standard curriculum.

Separating truth from crap is essentially what the scientific method is all about. If there is data that doesn't fit the theory, no matter how small, the theory is wrong and needs to be revised. A theory may explain existing facts, but it is useless unless it can make predictions that can then be tested. Stuff like that.

Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#117

Post by nitrogen »

matwood wrote: post #104
samatman wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this is true, and I respect your decision to go to medical school, consider this: In Japan, which has the best life expectancy of any nation, doctors are trained for three years after high school. That's it. I believe a case can be made that the entire pre-medical curriculum is a scam, one that wastes years of life from some of our most promising young people and rakes in billions of education expenses that dri…

Life expectancies != a countries medical care performance. For example, no amount of medical care can overcome the US obesity problem.

Non sequitur. Your second statement does not follow from the first. First you state what medical care is not, then as an example, state something else medical care is not that appears unrelated to the first.

More constructively, saying that medical care cannot help with obesity is unnecessarily restricting the definition of medical care. Further, obesity is a factor in life expectancy, so measuring life expectancy is a reasonable proxy for measuring obesity, and to some extent, vice versa.

Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#118

Post by realitygrill »

ahoyhere wrote: post #96
dasil003 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like your answer, though I was actually gonna say the opposite. They're both wrong! First of all this aim high stuff is nonsense. Facebook did not start with the goal of toppling MySpace. Microsoft did not start with the goal of running on 95% of machines. Twitter did not start with the thought of becoming a billion dollar company. These companies get their through consistent cycles of ambition and execution. There…

1000x YES on the "aim high stuff is nonsense." It's cargo-culting, pure and simple. Copying the way an accidental empire was built is as silly as building a straw plane in the hopes that the real plane will come back. Or buying Aeron chairs and a foosball table. As Basho once wrote, "Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought." That said, can't agree with you on the statement that a lif…

That's kind of interesting, because I thought Feynman came up (maybe just popularized?) the cargo-cult idea. Yet he himself advised his sister to aim high in physics.

Yet I agree with you, and somehow feel I'm making an improper comparison here. Why?

Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#119

Post by pak »

jasonkester wrote: post #81

I graduated from high school in 1989, at the very apex of 80's butt-rock heavy metal. My school had probably 200 guys with ratted out long hair, most of whom owned a guitar and dreamed of being a rock star. Of that group, probably 50 played well enough to do a creditable "Eruption" solo, and there were half a dozen guys who could get on stage at an assembly and keep the entire school entertained for 10 minutes. Lots…

Somebody I knew from high school dropped out of college to became a hugely successful Grammy-winning artist. It's unlikely, but possible.

Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#120

Post by matwood »

nitrogen wrote: post #117
matwood wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Life expectancies != a countries medical care performance. For example, no amount of medical care can overcome the US obesity problem.

Non sequitur. Your second statement does not follow from the first. First you state what medical care is not, then as an example, state something else medical care is not that appears unrelated to the first. More constructively, saying that medical care cannot help with obesity is unnecessarily restricting the definition of medical care. Further, obesity is a factor in life expectancy, so measuring life expectancy is…

I responded to someone who attempted to show the quality of medical care in a country by looking at the countries life expectancy. The problem I pointed out is that many factors play into life expectancy with medical care being one of the many[1]. From what I have read obesity leads to many early deaths and people who are obese have a much higher rate of disease. The US is one of the more obese countries and is far more obese than Japan. The difference in life expectancy could be attributed to the poor general health of the citizens and not to any difference in medical care. In fact, with how poor Americans seems to treat their bodies it's amazing that many live as long as they do. Perhaps it's through access to much better medical care than available in other countries?

[1]Other life expectancy lowering factors that have little to do with the quality of medical care include murders. For example wikipedia states and [Japan] experienced 1.1 murder per 100,000 population, compared with 3.9 for West Germany, 1.03 for England and Wales, and 8.7 for the United States that same year.

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