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Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

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Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#71

Post by moron4hire »

WalterBright wrote: post #62
whopa wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of the 3 pursuits you mentioned explicitly, I think only one of them actually truly benefits from the education system: medicine. With finance, the fundamentals are easily learned by self study, and to excel really depends more on personality type and drive than stuff that's taught in school. Law you can absolutely self study, there's plenty who've passed the bar exam without a degree in the past, though it's har…

I benefited greatly from the courses I took at Caltech. What I learned was: 1. how to learn 2. organized methods of thinking about problems 3. how to separate truth from crap 4. how to break down large problems into solvable small ones I'm not sure how these can be learned effectively through self study.

Being homeschooled, I had learned these things prior to college. Perhaps that is why I didn't get much out of it.

Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#72

Post by palish »

WalterBright wrote: post #62
whopa wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of the 3 pursuits you mentioned explicitly, I think only one of them actually truly benefits from the education system: medicine. With finance, the fundamentals are easily learned by self study, and to excel really depends more on personality type and drive than stuff that's taught in school. Law you can absolutely self study, there's plenty who've passed the bar exam without a degree in the past, though it's har…

I benefited greatly from the courses I took at Caltech. What I learned was: 1. how to learn 2. organized methods of thinking about problems 3. how to separate truth from crap 4. how to break down large problems into solvable small ones I'm not sure how these can be learned effectively through self study.

I'm not sure how [1. how to learn 2. organized methods of thinking about problems 3. how to separate truth from crap 4. how to break down large problems into solvable small ones] can be learned effectively through self study.

Perhaps you should break down that problem into solvable small ones? Then you could determine how I was able to teach myself each of those with only a high school education.

Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#74

Post by idoh »

whopa wrote: post #33
kyro wrote: post #25

It's funny, because even people like Zuckerberg eventually had to pull in experts with extensive educational backgrounds to help in developing the company. And if you look at any billion dollar company, those with degrees have played and continue to play a critical role in said company's growth and success. While I do agree that with a field like computer science, real world experience rather than educational backgro…

Out of the 3 pursuits you mentioned explicitly, I think only one of them actually truly benefits from the education system: medicine. With finance, the fundamentals are easily learned by self study, and to excel really depends more on personality type and drive than stuff that's taught in school. Law you can absolutely self study, there's plenty who've passed the bar exam without a degree in the past, though it's har…

I think it would be hard to be a competent lawyer without going to law school. Good law schools change the way you think, and that's not something that you can get self studying.

It is true that you can pass the bar without going to school. In fact law school does not prepare you for the bar exam. Most people take a supplemental course after law school just to prep for the exam. I am pretty sure that a reasonably bright person could just do the prep and pass the exam. But the exam itself is sort of a joke in that the material you are tested on is pretty orthogonal to what you'd need to know to be a good lawyer.

Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#75

Post by mayank »

palish wrote: post #72
WalterBright wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I benefited greatly from the courses I took at Caltech. What I learned was: 1. how to learn 2. organized methods of thinking about problems 3. how to separate truth from crap 4. how to break down large problems into solvable small ones I'm not sure how these can be learned effectively through self study.

I'm not sure how [1. how to learn 2. organized methods of thinking about problems 3. how to separate truth from crap 4. how to break down large problems into solvable small ones] can be learned effectively through self study. Perhaps you should break down that problem into solvable small ones? Then you could determine how I was able to teach myself each of those with only a high school education.

> Perhaps you should break down that problem into solvable small ones? Then you could determine how I was able to teach myself each of those with only a high school education.

This is something I've heard a lot. I don't mean to disparage your accomplishments, but how exactly do you know what you're missing with a college/grad school education? It's fallacious to think that a college education will instantly make you smarter, but it's also fallacious to think that a college education is worthless.

Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#76

Post by ant5 »

faramarz wrote: post #18
btmorex wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree completely. I only have about 50 college credits and have no plans to finish. I've also lived pretty much all over the United States and there really isn't much of a stigma... certainly not from my friends and family. Large companies and universities might have to make special arrangements for you to be on the right "career track", but that's about it (and they will do that, I have personal experience with a…

Then IMO you're in the small percentage of people who are motivated enough, talented enough and have the discipline to go and get what they want. Most people need to be taught that.

No, most people are taught not to pursue their own individual goals during the first two decades of institutionalized education.

Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#77

Post by ant5 »

mikeryan wrote: post #22
rumpelstiltskin wrote: post #11

There's just 2 problems with Vivek's position - a) Cost - In today's economic climate, I simply cannot justify an education that, on avg, costs over $100K. Especially when student loans are involved. b) Time - 4 yrs is an unnecessarily long amount of time for a bachelors degree, not to mention another 1-2 yrs for a masters. The opportunity cost of this time only compounds the first problem. Edit: Sorry, I should have…

I can kind of see the cost point - though most would argue that the lifetime earnings of someone with a college degree far outweigh a $100K investment. But the time thing kind of bugs me. As driven as HN is this may be a minority position but I really don't believe you should be working (in a 9-5 career style job) between 18-24. I really don't care so much abou t college, but have fun, go out, date guys and girls, tr…

I can kind of see the cost point - though most would argue that the lifetime earnings of someone with a college degree far outweigh a $100K investment.

Do those studies on lifetime earnings really isolate for other factors?

If dropping out of the college track isn't considered a valid, supported choice, then the only people that drop out will be those that have fallen out of the system. Is it a surprise that the majority of those students then fail?

But the time thing kind of bugs me. As driven as HN is this may be a minority position but I really don't believe you should be working (in a 9-5 career style job) between 18-24. I really don't care so much abou t college, but have fun, go out, date guys and girls, travel, there are so many things you should be doing at that age then starting a business and you'll end up better for it.

I got the "having fun" and dating out of the way between 16-18 (I dropped out of high school and moved out at 16). Everyone needs time to figure things out and grow up, and there shouldn't be a rush to start a business, but avoiding significant responsibility until you're 24 is unnecessary, carries a heavy opportunity cost, and is a waste of some of your most productive and formative years.

I didn't start my career until my late 20s and I don't regret that at all.

It's great that this worked out for you, but I have to say -- starting work in my field at 16 meant I had 10 years of experience when I was 26, and that expansive lead time on my contemporaries has been invaluable and allowed me to bring a breadth and depth of knowledge to my work that most people simply don't have, has ensured that I remain well ahead of the curve, and has provided me with a considerable backstop of experience to draw on when running my own business.

Given that I still love my life's work -- and that I have a few good working decades still ahead of me -- if I were given the choice, I wouldn't trade in those initial years for any other opportunity.

Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#78

Post by photon_off »

todayiamme wrote: post #69
kyro wrote: post #25

It's funny, because even people like Zuckerberg eventually had to pull in experts with extensive educational backgrounds to help in developing the company. And if you look at any billion dollar company, those with degrees have played and continue to play a critical role in said company's growth and success. While I do agree that with a field like computer science, real world experience rather than educational backgro…

You are making a mistake. It ultimately comes down to the drive that powers you. If you are in it to be a billionaire then you're looking at it in the wrong way. It's a testament to the quixotic nature of life that you never, ever get what you're looking for. I am in it to learn and grow as a human being, while trying to figure out what it means to be me on this ball of rock and liquid metal. I don't care if my start…

I respect your perspective and attitude, and while it may be a perfectly functional one to operate in, it is not realistic.

I'm not a fan of truisms such as "the quixotic nature of life that you never, ever get what you're looking for" and whatever it is called when you claim 1 factor of many is the culprit such as "lack of drive is the reason people fail" and "this is the difference between zuckerburgs and me".

Truisms are nearly always incorrect. I am looking for my keyboard. Well, it's right beneath my fingers. That should seem to disprove your theory of innate life quixoticness. I'm not meaning to be facetious. That's just how reasoning works. It's very likely that you perceive life to be this way because you don't give credit to the times where you do get what you're looking for, and, conversely, you may attribute too much to the times where you don't get what you really, really want (despite seeking it very thoroughly).

In terms of why people fail, and the difference between zuckerburgs and you, there are many, many different reasons. While you might have meant to say "the main reason" or "the main difference", it is my perspective that issues as complex as "what makes people different from one another" and "why do some people succeed, and some people fail" are pretty much unsolvable. There are just so many factors in each person's life, and the world in general, that it seems incredibly unlikely that one or two factors are behind any given characteristics of our life and world. This is also why I lend very low credibility to anything I read that says: "Want some big thing X, then do some simple thing Y" and other such link-bait articles. It is in their brevity they appealing, easy to believe, and probably wrong.

That being said, of course these types of life-experience and drama-driven topics are fun to indulge in, from time to time, but it takes a lot more than a few paragraphs and minutes of thought for me to take away anything other than: "Interesting..."

In specific response to "drive" being the main factor behind success, it's probably true that it is very important. There is also luck (a massive topic that encompasses anything from having your competitors succeed/fail [which recursively accounts for more luck], to whether or not you overhear a specific person say something when you're in a certain frame of mind [aka: Inception]), who you know, where you are, etc. Kyro was pointing out these attributes and their relation to the article, which I thought was insightful. And I definitely do not think he is mistaken in doing so.

Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#79

Post by todayiamme »

photon_off wrote: post #78
todayiamme wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are making a mistake. It ultimately comes down to the drive that powers you. If you are in it to be a billionaire then you're looking at it in the wrong way. It's a testament to the quixotic nature of life that you never, ever get what you're looking for. I am in it to learn and grow as a human being, while trying to figure out what it means to be me on this ball of rock and liquid metal. I don't care if my start…

I respect your perspective and attitude, and while it may be a perfectly functional one to operate in, it is not realistic. I'm not a fan of truisms such as "the quixotic nature of life that you never, ever get what you're looking for" and whatever it is called when you claim 1 factor of many is the culprit such as "lack of drive is the reason people fail" and "this is the difference between zuckerburgs and me". Trui…

I respect your comment.

You're right about truisms, but in this case making a billion dollar is something so vague and unsubstantiated that there isn't any fixed path to it. Whereas smaller short term objects and goals can be grasped and put into perspective. How can you do that with something as fluid as the path your life will take? It's certain that in the random chaos your plans will never work.

So, what happens when you set out to become a billionaire, or a millionaire with single minded intensity? You lose your ability to adapt and invest in the seeds that grow into something truly meaningful be it people, knowledge, observations, research, projects. So in essence by having that rigid goal in mind you're setting yourself up for failure.

Yes, I agree that people are complex beings and you can never factor them in, but what I have observed is that almost anyone who became anything in their lives at any level had a comparable amount of resilience. Whenever you do anything at all you will fail again and again and again. It will be as if the only thing you can do right is getting things wrong, but it takes persistence to move beyond that and that persistence is a combination of the amount of resilience a person has and what drives them.

As far as luck goes the interesting thing about it is that you have to be the one to walk through that door. Chance in itself can only go so far someone has to see the significance and exploit it, but that again is a function of the state of that person. Hence, you have a recursion. The luckiest people tend to be the ones who go the farthest.

On the other hand, my comment really might be a bunch of sour grapes. I can't go to college any time soon and I admit that I would love to be in the type of environment MIT offers. So, I have soul searched a lot and tried to see if I could convert this into something far more beautiful.

The only thing my life has taught me is that failure should be celebrated more than success.

Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#80

Post by points »

faramarz wrote: post #7

There still is a stigma for putting university on hold or dropping out. Trust me there is. All you guys (Arrington included) in the valley are in a bubble, which is fine, because it works there but the rest of society doesn't feel the same (good or bad). Anywhere else, your family, your friends, your colleagues, they will not take you seriously until you finish your degree. The stigma will only die when every single…

BS. I dropped out after a year. It was dull and I wasn't anything that would ever be of any use. (I passed the first year exams).

(I'm in the UK, so maybe it's different, but there's certainly no stigma here).

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