Psychedelics could heal brain cells in people suffering from depression: study • Hacker News Board

Re: Psychedelics could heal brain cells in people suffering from depression: study

#131

Post by jvandyke » Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 8:18 PM UTC

JamesBarney wrote: post #108

jvandyke wrote: post #27

I recommend reading "How to Change Your Mind" by Michael Pollan if you're all interested in the history and details of psychedelics. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/36613747-how-to-change-y... Based my reading of that, what these researchers are doing is not prescribing psychedelics to patients with mental disorders and giving the whole "take one time a day with food". What these researchers are finding is that t…

What is the effect size of the randomized controlled trial for psychedelic therapy?

I'm not sure (you can look it up as well as anyone), but from what I've heard (again, Pollan's book), controlled, randomized trials are very difficult if not impossible with psychedelics. It's obvious to both the patient and the observer who has received a placebo and who has not. That's part of the problem with studying this class of drugs, what we have considered the gold standard for clinical trials isn't effective here. So do we trust what results we do see or dismiss them because of their nature?

When a small study shows that 80% of smokers stop cold-turkey after a single session and 60% of them are still abstinent a year later (versus 30% for therapy), it's hard to discount the results so long as other trusted methods are used.

Study using psilocybin for smoking cessation: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27441452 Study using CBT for smoking cessation: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4119230/

Re: Psychedelics could heal brain cells in people suffering from depression: study

#132

Post by serioussecurity » Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 8:27 PM UTC

nonbel wrote: post #29

wincy wrote: post #15

I’m really worried about the subset of the population with preexisting mental disorders such as manic depressive disorder, schizophrenia, and depression who will suffer a psychotic break from the use of these substances. Maybe I’m wrong, but from what I’ve heard and read it seems like there’s no way to know what will happen until you try it. A certain percentage of the population goes to hell in the most literal sens…

>"mental frailty...they begin to question everything" As opposed to blindly "believe everything"? I would say the ability to question everything is evidence of a strong independent adult mind. The ability to just believe everything you are told isn't really "frail" (which I associate with old age and wisdom), but still weak in a childlike sense.

Clearly you've never experienced a psychotic break....

Re: Psychedelics could heal brain cells in people suffering from depression: study

#133

Post by bfuller » Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 8:28 PM UTC

wincy wrote: post #15

I’m really worried about the subset of the population with preexisting mental disorders such as manic depressive disorder, schizophrenia, and depression who will suffer a psychotic break from the use of these substances. Maybe I’m wrong, but from what I’ve heard and read it seems like there’s no way to know what will happen until you try it. A certain percentage of the population goes to hell in the most literal sens…

I agree in that psychedelics should be absolutely a last resort. That being said LSD was a miracle for me personally and saved my life.

Re: Psychedelics could heal brain cells in people suffering from depression: study

#134

Post by pmoriarty » Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 8:30 PM UTC

oldgeezr wrote: post #123

wincy wrote: post #15

I’m really worried about the subset of the population with preexisting mental disorders such as manic depressive disorder, schizophrenia, and depression who will suffer a psychotic break from the use of these substances. Maybe I’m wrong, but from what I’ve heard and read it seems like there’s no way to know what will happen until you try it. A certain percentage of the population goes to hell in the most literal sens…

I have permanent visual disturbances and suffered long-term panic attacks and anxiety as a result of psychedelic use. Things got better over time, but not completely back to normal. I'm not advocating for the continuation of our current legal strategy, but I feel like these drugs need to come with strong cultural wisdom about their appropriate use and potential for abuse. Anyone who's been in a psychedelic community…

Are these people "fried" because they used those substances, or because of how they used them, or how they viewed, integrated (or not-integrated) their experiences?

A visual distortion is a good example. When experiencing a visual distortion, it is possible to feel anxious about the appearance of such a distortion, or instead one could be indifferent to it, or even enjoy and welcome it. It need not be negative.

More research is certainly needed on the negative experiences people sometimes have with psychedelics (so far, most of the research has focused on the positives), but I have a strong feeling that how people approach their experiences, what they expect to happen, and how they interpret what happens plays a very critical role on whether the experience is positive or negative for them. This is the old "set" (or "mindset") part of "set and setting" that's critically important for their constructive use.

Also, it may be possible to work through any anxiety or negative effects one experience with a therapist. Panic attacks and anxiety, for instance, are things that therapists tend to be actually really good at treating.

Re: Psychedelics could heal brain cells in people suffering from depression: study

#135

Post by sakopov » Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 8:32 PM UTC

I don't know how legitimate these stories are, but some folks swear that they've gotten rid of various addictions after their trips on Ayahuasca. This is apparently a mixture of plants that some tribes in South America have been using for self-medication for ages.

Re: Psychedelics could heal brain cells in people suffering from depression: study

#136

Post by dqpb » Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 8:38 PM UTC

sakopov wrote: post #135

I don't know how legitimate these stories are, but some folks swear that they've gotten rid of various addictions after their trips on Ayahuasca. This is apparently a mixture of plants that some tribes in South America have been using for self-medication for ages.

Yeah, let's take medical advice from ancient intoxicated tribesmen. That will work out great.

Re: Psychedelics could heal brain cells in people suffering from depression: study

#137

Post by mancerayder » Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 8:43 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #57

mancerayder wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, why 'or'? Second, anyone who thinks psychedelics are a shortcut or an easy way to do something obviously haven't experienced them.

> anyone who thinks psychedelics are a shortcut or an easy way to do something But this is how the early experiments with ketamine are being described - as a near instant treatment that takes a couple of hours and lasts for months.

I've never had ketamine, but its status as a hypnotic and its use in surgery suggests it's something that numbs the mind. Psychedelics do the opposite, in a very extreme way. It's an intense experience where certain mental barriers disappear, some of which are crutches which are taken away. Some things become unforgettable.

I highly recommend doing more research before pushing exercise as a more moral (or whatever, 'safer' if you prefer, but I suspect most opposition is on old-fashioned moral grounds) alternative. The hand-me-down moralisms about drugs have got to stop, especially in a world of legitimate alcohol and prescription drug use. It's time to question what the authorities have been legitimizing versus stigmatizing. The opioid crisis and long-time cannabis prohibition aren't enough to cause questions about the impartiality of the status quo?

Re: Psychedelics could heal brain cells in people suffering from depression: study

#138

Post by orasis » Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 8:43 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #113

ttul wrote: post #30

So, precisely the wrong approach would be to block research of any kind by continuing the severe prohibition of these substances.

Perhaps we need a new category of prescription, e.g. "for use only under direct supervision of a qualified medical professional" In other words it could be dispensed in a clinical setting, but not via a pharmacy or other "take home" pathways. I'm thinking that must already exists for certain surgical anesthetics, etc.

I agree that experienced guides are important for high doses, but microdosing is safe for DIY.

Re: Psychedelics could heal brain cells in people suffering from depression: study

#139

Post by mmt » Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 8:49 PM UTC

Jare wrote: post #121

User23 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your point is taken, but one must remember that in the end we are all of us responsible for our own lives. There's a reason why people who lift joke that the heaviest weight in the gym is the front door. One approach that has worked well for many is establishing positive habits to displace negative ones. That takes a while, but there are tricks to help, like having a group to hold you accountable.

Accountability works for procrastination and things that, as you say, can be described as negative habits or character traits. Depression is a completely different beast. Depression is like I'm sitting on your chest and tell you that breathing is easy and all you need is to do it rhythmically. Depression is like that day your brain doesn't function properly after not sleeping during the night, but every day for years…

Agreed.

Furthermore, what is somewhat amazing is that, on a Good Day (or less depressed or in-remission day, or whatever one wants to call it), one can also look back on a Bad Day, just yesterday, and be mystified why that seemingly dead simple task [1], seemed completely overwhelming to the point of impossibility.

Like many diseases of the brain, including dementias and schizophrenia, the sufferer can seem and even be fully functional when the disease isn't (as) active, including being prone to falling for the same fallacies as everyone else.

In the throes of the symptoms, however, the brain just isn't working the same, so it's not fair, compassionate, nor reasonable to extrapolate about habit formation or responsibility from an unafflicted brain. It can get a bit too easy to blame the victim that way.

None of this is to say that encouraging good habit formation or increased patient self direction/determination can't be helpful, when possible. I'm just saying not to start with that as an assumption and that it likely isn't even possible for the more severe cases.

[1] taking out the trash, running the dishwasher, or even just getting out of bed

Re: Psychedelics could heal brain cells in people suffering from depression: study

#140

Post by pmoriarty » Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 8:50 PM UTC

stuntkite wrote: post #88

wincy wrote: post #15

I’m really worried about the subset of the population with preexisting mental disorders such as manic depressive disorder, schizophrenia, and depression who will suffer a psychotic break from the use of these substances. Maybe I’m wrong, but from what I’ve heard and read it seems like there’s no way to know what will happen until you try it. A certain percentage of the population goes to hell in the most literal sens…

As a person who has been to psychedelic hell, I can say a nice part about it is that it ends. Having people around you to help you assimilate complicated experiences is key. If you're on the edge of a manic episode, it can definitely be a catalyst, and I've seen difficult things come of it but sometimes difficult things are manifestations of things we need to deal with. The benefits of responsible psychedelic usage g…

"The more modern thinking is that schizophrenia doesn't exist[1]."

One of the main points of the article you link to is that schizophrenia does exist, with the caveat that it exists not as a single disease but as a disease spectrum:

"when Dr. van Os writes that "'schizophrenia' does not exist," taking care to place quotation marks around "schizophrenia," what he's mainly saying is that the term "schizophrenia" doesn't represent a single disease entity and should therefore be replaced with "something like ‘psychosis spectrum syndrome.'"

and

"saying that "schizophrenia" represents a variety of distinct disorders with different causes doesn't mean that it doesn't exist at all"

It concludes with:

"In the end then, the argument that "schizophrenia" doesn’t exist is far from compelling. Schizophrenia is a word we use in medicine to describe a familiar set of co-occurring psychotic symptoms, with potentially different causes, just like "anemia," or "hypertension," or "headache." In some cases, it can be useful to think of it as a categorical disorder, distinct from other forms of psychosis. In others, it can be best thought of as a spectrum condition, lumping it together with other psychotic disorders. A more enlightened view of schizophrenia acknowledges that both can be true."