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USB Type-C is still a mess

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Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#211

Post by txdv »

fphhotchips wrote: post #202
yathern wrote: post #122

I always hear how USB-C is such a mess, and everyone agrees - I just wanted to quickly provide a counter anecdote. As a user, who knows nothing about the protocol or the politics or anything else - USB-C works wonderfully for me - I only wish more devices used it. My laptop plugs into my monitor, provides more USB ports there, and audio out, which feeds into speakers. My dinky phone charger can charge my laptop, whic…

Ok, so counter-counter point. I was recently in the market for a laptop. The one I bought has a USB-C port and two USB-A ports. Because it's a Thunderbolt USB-C Port, it even has a little lightning bolt printed next to it on the chassis. Previous laptops I've owned with USB-C could charge over it. This one can't. The model with the smaller screen can, but not the 15 inch. The slightly different model can, but not the…

The lightning bolt really makes me assume that you can use it to charge.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#212

Post by WhitneyLand »

chrisseaton wrote: post #48
WhitneyLand wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we can consider that an implementation detail and that fragile connectors are not mandated or inherent to the specification. There are a lot of ways to skin the cat even within the constraints given. Your concern is totally valid, but that it’s more about design/manufacturing quality rather than lightning versus USB.

Do you not think it's possible that the specification makes it hard to make a connector that is robust?

Of course, yes. But making it hard doesn’t prevent it from being done robustly, practicality speaking “hard” usually means they’ve made the mistake of increasing costs. As expensive as realizable lightning cables are I’m not sure how big of a factor the extra cost / effort for someone like anker to contract a high quality cable would really matter in the decision process of one vs. the other.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#213

Post by lucb1e »

ohazi wrote: post #49

The one nice thing I can say about USB Type-C is that the physical connector is pretty great, especially when compared to Micro USB, which was awful . Of course, even here I have to add a huge caveat, as I've seen devices that charge at different rates depending on the orientation of the Type-C plug. facepalm

From my n=1 experience with USB-C, I prefer micro-USB because the connection (female) is not sharp at the bottom of my phone. The one C connector I've tried (Xiaomi Mi A1) was so sharp it was just not comfortable to hold. This was one of the reasons I returned it and got another device with micro-USB instead.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#214

Post by zbentley »

Another fun defect I've found while doing hardware support: some USB-C dongles (for various ports) are directionally sensitive (only work when turned a certain way. This isn't limited to cheap dongles, nor does it seem to be a physical (shaky port or loose connection) problem. I'd love to know why that's the case.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#215

Post by tjoff »

lpmay wrote: post #203
tjoff wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source? I thought heat was the primary source of wear. And fast charge produces lots of heat regardless if it's in the middle of the range or not.

I'm not an electrochemist, but I have been told one of the major wear mechanisms is lithium plating, which is a function of anode voltage and charge current (and probably 100 other things). As I understand, the standard CI/CV charge cycle is very conservative to avoid this complexity. I believe more sophisticated parts like the TI Max charge series get around this by running estimators of the cells anode voltage and…

I don't know enough to reason about it myself, but there are plenty of people that claim it has negative effects. And when pressed most people I've encountered that say that any negative effects are negligible reveal that their source have been marketing from the manufacturer.

https://www.reddit.com/r/GalaxyS8/comments/7fg4sk/should_i_s...

I'm not saying the link above is supposed to be more credible than your post. But it is an alternative view point that resonates with most of what I've read.

For the same reason Tesla recommends you to not over-use supercharging (though this obviously is a sensitive subject), since it puts a toll on batteries - and Tesla unlike most other battery peripherals actually have good and active cooling.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#216

Post by Can_Not »

lopmotr wrote: post #152
peterwwillis wrote: post #141

The biggest fraud of USB-C is it just doesn't do what consumers expect. I bought a USB-C device, expecting the device to then provide all the functionality that USB-C was advertised as having. But the manufacturer didn't implement any of those features, so it's just a non-standard cable that I need a dozen adapters for. What a joke.

That's just expectations which will adapt quickly enough. I doubt you'll make the same mistake again. It's not just type C either I bought a USB 3.0 thumbdrive once and it turned out to be the same speed as a normal one, so even though it was 3.0 as advertised, there was absolutely no advantage in that. Nobody complains that their bedside lamp doesn't deliver the full 2400 W that the wall outlet advertises or that it…

> Nobody complains that their bedside lamp doesn't deliver the full 2400 W that the wall outlet

I don't think the same information asymmetry exists for lamps that we have in USB C.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#217

Post by apple4ever »

jrockway wrote: post #54

I remember arguing with people when Type-C was new; they told me it would change the world, I told them it would never work. The problem is... they made everything optional, and thus when a user sees a Type-C port, they have no idea what to expect. Will it work with a device that requires Thunderbolt? Will it drive a DisplayPort monitor? Will this charger charge their laptop? Will this charger charge their phone? The…

> I remember arguing with people when Type-C was new; they told me it would change the world, I told them it would never work.

Yep I did the same thing. I was hugely skeptical Type-C was the panacea for our woes. I'm so glad I haven't adopted anything Type-C yet except the Switch (so really, no interaction with anything else).

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#218

Post by supertramp_ »

Believe me or not, I've bought a MacBook Pro with a 3rd-party usb-c Hub adapter and I've noticed whenever I plug it, it interferes with my hotspot connection (I don't receive any data from my hotspot anymore). Does anyone know anything about this?

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#219

Post by lpmay »

tjoff wrote: post #215
lpmay wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not an electrochemist, but I have been told one of the major wear mechanisms is lithium plating, which is a function of anode voltage and charge current (and probably 100 other things). As I understand, the standard CI/CV charge cycle is very conservative to avoid this complexity. I believe more sophisticated parts like the TI Max charge series get around this by running estimators of the cells anode voltage and…

I don't know enough to reason about it myself, but there are plenty of people that claim it has negative effects. And when pressed most people I've encountered that say that any negative effects are negligible reveal that their source have been marketing from the manufacturer. https://www.reddit.com/r/GalaxyS8/comments/7fg4sk/should_i_s... I'm not saying the link above is supposed to be more credible than your post.…

Oh, no doubt heat is also not good for batteries (neither is the cold). I didn't mean to imply it wasn't.

However I'm still not sure heat is the first order effect limiting charge rates. If you consider that the charge efficiency of the cell is something around 99%, the total losses at a 1C rate relative to the thermal mass of the cell are pretty negligible ( nominally, around 3.6mW per A of charge current ). I'd wager that when your cellphone heats up under charge, that's primarily due to losses in the ~90+% efficient charger circuitry. Heat is heat, and that is still not good for the battery of course. I believe the cooling system in the Tesla is primarily for when the cells are being discharged, but it would be really interesting to hear the full story on that from a Tesla engineer.

I found the below link which also seems to imply the lithium plating as well as other chemical effects are the first order issues. http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_808b_what_caus...

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#220

Post by reaperducer »

camgunz wrote: post #171
reaperducer wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple's USB-C dongle... Which dongle do you mean? Apple has about five different USB-C dongles, each for a specific purpose. Do you mean the $19 USB-C to old USB dongle? How is it less functional than any other USB-C to old USB dongle? It seems to achieve its stated purpose. What functionality do other USB-C to old USB dongles have that it lacks?

I mean the first Google result when you lookup 'apple usb-c dongle' [1]. It's $70. [1]: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MJ1K2AM/A/usb-c-digital-a...

If you're on HN, you should know that Google results are tailored to the person, not the search query.

The first Google result I got for the same query was the previously mentioned $19 dongle.

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