USB Type-C is still a mess • Hacker News Board

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#41

Post by bluedino » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 5:10 PM UTC

I finally broke down and bought a generic USB-C charger (Insignia from Best Buy) to keep in the shop, because enough USB-C laptops come through and nobody ever brings a charger.

But just because a laptop has USB-C ports doesn't mean you can charge using it, here's looking at you, Lenovo P51. This machine is a workstation and requires 130W, USB-C can only supply 100W so it won't charge at all over USB-C. Blah.

Also had no luck even trickle-charging smaller USB-C machines like the HP x360 using a phone charger.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#42

Post by extralego » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

exmadscientist wrote: post #22

Speaking as someone in the industry who's worked on Type C-enabled gadgets, half the bloody problem is that the Type C products offered by the major semiconductor companies are _terrible_. For sake of a simple example, consider designing a rechargeable flashlight. For whatever reason, you'd like it to be rechargeable over a USB-C port. You also want the flashlight to charge as fast as possible from whatever power sou…

Wouldn't there always be companies trying to sell the cheapest qualifier?

Wouldn't the expensive products you mention that "might work" become more affordable if they were manufactured at a higher rate? (But maybe they aren't because they are harder to sell)

>I am confident that Type-C's market penetration will skyrocket as soon as the difficulty and cost of actually integrating it into a product reaches sane levels.

Isn't the current market of so many low-cost Type-C devices evidence that the cost is already low?

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#43

Post by vertexFarm » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

exmadscientist wrote: post #22

Speaking as someone in the industry who's worked on Type C-enabled gadgets, half the bloody problem is that the Type C products offered by the major semiconductor companies are _terrible_. For sake of a simple example, consider designing a rechargeable flashlight. For whatever reason, you'd like it to be rechargeable over a USB-C port. You also want the flashlight to charge as fast as possible from whatever power sou…

Forgive me for sounding extremely ignorant. I know this is not my area of specialty and I admit I'm about to sound stupid. I want to admit this right off the bat.

Can't you just hook up the VCC and ground from any USB charging IC to a type-c socket? It's all +5v right? I don't understand why the type of connector dictates how fast a cable should be useful for charging. That seems like it should be up to the simple gauge and length of the wire and thus how much current it can handle.

From what I've heard re: that chart in OP's link that shows the different fast charge rates for different manufacturer's wall warts and cables, most of that is caused by proprietary ICs doing sneaky things like throttling the charge rate when it discovers it isn't connected to an official Huawei cable or whatever through some resistor value going to ground from one of the data lines, or some similar method. Couldn't the IC in the device read the resistance / inductance of the cable and determine through that how much current it could handle? I feel like this is all bad faith shenanigans through proprietary cable DRM. When charging is concerned, a conductor is a conductor assuming there's enough thickness to prevent overheating, right?

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#44

Post by abritinthebay » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 5:12 PM UTC

Latteland wrote: post #14

Not putting enough ports on devices is a crucial problem. Apple with their stupid single port is just idiotic. The best port selection with usb-c is on the 2015 chrome pixel laptop. 2 usb-c, 2 usb-a. Just having a single usb-c has caused endless pain, all so apple could sell stupid dongles. The new google pixelbook 2018 is a great form factor, except they only have 2 usb-c, they dropped usb-a. The reason was probably…

> Apple with their stupid single port is just idiotic.

Not really. The entry-grade MacBook is designed to be tiny and portable. One port that does everything fits with this philosophy (makes the laptop thinner and smaller and less complex - yes, it makes a surprisingly large difference).

Want more? The MacBook Pro is for you then with 4 ports - all of which, as they are usb-c, are more multi-functional than usb-a (not b, that's like you see on printers).

You may not be the target customer for a single port but it is a very intentional design choice and makes a lot of sense as most tech people use now supports wireless communication.

In fact you can see you're not the target market - you want to plug in a mouse and keyboard to a damn laptop. Basically you're docking your laptop. Ok, so get a hub. You are an edge case.

Products not making themselves worse for a tiny fringe of the market is a good thing.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#45

Post by pdpi » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 5:13 PM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #19

Latteland wrote: post #14

Not putting enough ports on devices is a crucial problem. Apple with their stupid single port is just idiotic. The best port selection with usb-c is on the 2015 chrome pixel laptop. 2 usb-c, 2 usb-a. Just having a single usb-c has caused endless pain, all so apple could sell stupid dongles. The new google pixelbook 2018 is a great form factor, except they only have 2 usb-c, they dropped usb-a. The reason was probably…

Apple with their stupid single port is just idiotic This is on a single specific device. The best port selection with usb-c is on the 2015 chrome pixel laptop. 2 usb-c, 2 usb-b You mean USB-A. Just having a single usb-c has caused endless pain, all so apple could sell stupid dongles. Nobody I know using MacBooks has a particular problem with this. A dongle would be required in most cases to connect to an external dis…

> A dongle would be required in most cases to connect to an external display in any case

Is it? You'd need to be using a display that provides neither DisplayPort nor HDMI. HDMI tends to be available on even somewhat older displays, and most modern ones I've dealt with definitely have both.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#46

Post by bluedino » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 5:13 PM UTC

Latteland wrote: post #14

Not putting enough ports on devices is a crucial problem. Apple with their stupid single port is just idiotic. The best port selection with usb-c is on the 2015 chrome pixel laptop. 2 usb-c, 2 usb-a. Just having a single usb-c has caused endless pain, all so apple could sell stupid dongles. The new google pixelbook 2018 is a great form factor, except they only have 2 usb-c, they dropped usb-a. The reason was probably…

This would be fine if there were good USB-C port expanders. They're all terrible, even the Apple one. If you just want power or video, you're fine. But nobody can build a working, stable USB 3.0 hub into one.

So while you can charge your 12" MacBook at the same time that you're plugged into a 4k or 2560x1440 monitor, you can't use any damn external drives. They either run at turtle speeds or they randomly unmount or don't work at all.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#47

Post by PascLeRasc » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 5:14 PM UTC

sebazzz wrote: post #15

MBCook wrote: post #7

“Why doesn’t Apple just get rid of Lightning and use USB-C on their iPhones!” This is why. Ignoring the momentum Lightning had from being a few years older, this is a great reason not to switch. Sadly I know this has become a big problem for people on the new Macs. Plug a USB-C hub in? Now that port doesn’t do Thunderbolt or Display Port. How do you know that? Trial and error. Very un-Appley.

In my experience the connector from Apple is far more reliable than USB C. USB C is a rounded flat rectangle with a piece of plastic in the center and pins between, which is small and can easily be damaged. Lightning on the other hand is a solid metal connector with the pins/contacts on the outside, which is much more sturdier. Lighting also does a nice "click" when connected.

Everyone I know with a Pixel 1 or 2 has a loose connection to their USB-C cable, even nice aftermarket Anker ones. It feels as fragile as the USB 3 external hard drive connector type.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#48

Post by chrisseaton » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 5:14 PM UTC

WhitneyLand wrote: post #38

sebazzz wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience the connector from Apple is far more reliable than USB C. USB C is a rounded flat rectangle with a piece of plastic in the center and pins between, which is small and can easily be damaged. Lightning on the other hand is a solid metal connector with the pins/contacts on the outside, which is much more sturdier. Lighting also does a nice "click" when connected.

I think we can consider that an implementation detail and that fragile connectors are not mandated or inherent to the specification. There are a lot of ways to skin the cat even within the constraints given. Your concern is totally valid, but that it’s more about design/manufacturing quality rather than lightning versus USB.

Do you not think it's possible that the specification makes it hard to make a connector that is robust?

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#49

Post by ohazi » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 5:14 PM UTC

The one nice thing I can say about USB Type-C is that the physical connector is pretty great, especially when compared to Micro USB, which was awful.

Of course, even here I have to add a huge caveat, as I've seen devices that charge at different rates depending on the orientation of the Type-C plug.

facepalm

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#50

Post by cptskippy » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 5:15 PM UTC

sebazzz wrote: post #15

MBCook wrote: post #7

“Why doesn’t Apple just get rid of Lightning and use USB-C on their iPhones!” This is why. Ignoring the momentum Lightning had from being a few years older, this is a great reason not to switch. Sadly I know this has become a big problem for people on the new Macs. Plug a USB-C hub in? Now that port doesn’t do Thunderbolt or Display Port. How do you know that? Trial and error. Very un-Appley.

In my experience the connector from Apple is far more reliable than USB C. USB C is a rounded flat rectangle with a piece of plastic in the center and pins between, which is small and can easily be damaged. Lightning on the other hand is a solid metal connector with the pins/contacts on the outside, which is much more sturdier. Lighting also does a nice "click" when connected.

I really like the Lightning connector, it's by far my favorite connector.

It does seem like with USB C both the plug and the port are fragile. The plug can easily be crushed and the port, like Micro USB, has the weird plastic tab with pins that can be smashed. That being said the only mechanical failures I ever witnessed with a Micro USB Port were when a cable was forced in the wrong way, I would definitely chalk those up to the user (ex-mother-in-law) being a supreme idiot and not necessarily a flaw in the port.

> Lighting also does a nice "click" when connected.

All of the USB C Cables and devices I own give a very nice thunk when plugged-in, almost like going over a speed bump in a car. There's no question that a connection is made.

I think the biggest issue over all is dodgy cables and I had my fair share of those with Lightning and Micro USB. I've only bought ISB C cables off Benson Leung's recommended lists so I have yet to get a bad one yet though I have no doubt the problem is as bad or worse than with Micro USB.