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Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

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Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#431

Post by akhilcacharya »

cableshaft wrote: post #309
akhilcacharya wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the Big5 have tons of locations. Amazon in particular has tech centers in places like Phoenix and Detroit, while Google is in Chicago. Microsoft is even in Fargo! Unless you want to be a digital nomad I guess. Then it’s probably not ideal, but I do know some fully remote positions exist at the L6 level at Amazon.

Google has an office in Chicago, but from what I hear it's almost entirely sales jobs. I live in Chicago and periodically have Google recruiters contacting me, and it's never been for a position in Chicago, it's only ever been for Mountain View.

That is not true anymore. They have engineers now, and they're rapidly expanding.

They do have a low base though, $98.5k vs. like $110k or something in MTV (and of course most people negotiate that way, way up).

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#432

Post by walshemj »

TheHydroImpulse wrote: post #263
lgregg wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I doubt I'll even bother to apply to the big 5, maybe even the big 20. I'm coming out of a yearlong software intensive in October with a liberal art major from a marketing background. I know a few people at those companies but there is also the question of leetcode. I think my chances are much higher with other types of companies, startups included.

As someone without a degree, getting an interview at the Big 5 was quite easy. Passing those interviews is another thing entirely but having the right experiences in your resume has been more important in my case.

I think this might be true if your lucky I was up for a FANG position in London but I have an atypical education I I suspect my lack of a degree counted against me.

With the best will in the world some low level recruiter working out of Spain is not going to be able to read between the lines and work out that actually working for a world leading RnD org on campus at one of the elite UK universities might actually mean I was a good candidate.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#433

Post by manigandham »

ironjunkie wrote: post #370
inimino wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do founders get over 10x early employees? Because founders take at least 100x the risk of an early employee, and 100x the personal risk and commitment. Founders generally aren't getting paid (at least until revenue or significant funding comes through) and they have 100x the impact that an early employee does on the success of the company. If an early employee doesn't work out, the founders just replace that pe…

That narrative is completely false. Initially there is definitely a bit more work//risk, but don't forget that they also get all the benefits associated to it, even early in the life of the startup: Social//network connection with other entrepreneur that will always give them a fallback job in case the startup fails. They are also seen as brilliant individuals and market themselves so much more then normal employees.

A bit more? You vastly underestimate the effort involved.

And who's guaranteeing all these fallback jobs? Other founders just hire failed entrepreneurs so they can stick together? That's a great way to lose money. You must be reading about the 0.01% of founders who get all the attention and the fluffy feel-good startup posts because this is definitely not how it works.

And yes, more risk deserves more reward, why is that even controversial?

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#434

Post by toephu2 »

dmode wrote: post #405
toephu2 wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me but the median senior software engineer at Microsoft does not make $400k/yr in TC. Same goes for AMZN. There are only a handful of companies that pay $400k/yr for senior software engineers and MSFT ain't one of them (facebook, and google do however). Go checkout Blind if you don't believe. Or ask your friend at MSFT. And like someone else said, first level managers are more like 250-350k range, not 400k, ye…

I didn't say median. I said it is L5-L6 comp, which doesn't make it a median as I assume most engineers will be in L1-L4 band. That said, it is not an outlier either. And won't be surprised is 20-30% of engineering and PM orgs are making that money. Also, Uber and Airbnb gives RSUs which are not paper money. I am confident that an IPO for both these companies are inevitable.

RSU's in a company that hasn't gone public are not very liquid... not paper money, but definitely not worth face value. Take that value and cut it in half or 1/4.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#435

Post by akhilcacharya »

nvarsj wrote: post #411
akhilcacharya wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the Big5 have tons of locations. Amazon in particular has tech centers in places like Phoenix and Detroit, while Google is in Chicago. Microsoft is even in Fargo! Unless you want to be a digital nomad I guess. Then it’s probably not ideal, but I do know some fully remote positions exist at the L6 level at Amazon.

I'm pretty sure they all pay less outside of their HQ location. At least in London, salaries are significantly less for the equivalent role.

In America, they generally don't. It's a mild adjustment at worst. Chicago is the biggest I've seen - $98.5k base vs. $110k base for L3 SWE - but FB doesn't change their comp, Amazon and Microsoft only increase it in the SFBA and NYC (IIRC).

In fact, for new grads Amazon pays the exact same TC in Seattle and in Detroit.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#436

Post by biztos »

davidw wrote: post #29

Here's what I consider the 'sweet spot': A small company, say 20-50 people or thereabouts, that has a profitable niche and does not require much in the way of investments. Here's why: * Small is more fun for me - I like knowing everyone I work with, and the chance to see what other people are working on, and maybe move around some in what I'm doing, rather than 'the same thing day in and day out at BigCo'. Your work…

> You need to avoid things like winner take all markets.

Another thing that might work is looking at industries with a lot of software needs that are not traditionally considered "tech companies."

A long time ago I worked in Biotech. There's tons of money there, and an awful lot of software made both in-house and by consultancies. (And I bet it's a hotbed of machine learning right now.)

I'm sure there are lots of other industries where their core business makes a lot of money but there's no way for startups to just "disrupt" them out of existence; however if you can move the needle 0.01% that's more than enough to support a very profitable smallish company.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#437

Post by jensvdh »

colordrops wrote: post #430
ryandrake wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take that view with a huge grain of salt. Nobody is denying that someone, somewhere is making $400k as a software engineer, but we are talking outlier employees at outlier companies. You’re not getting this as a medium level rank and file engineer, or at a non-FAANG company. This whole “software engineers make $400k” trope seems to have taken on a life of its own. Every time salary comes up here, these guys come out…

Maybe I'm in a bubble but everyone around me is making at least 400k total comp. Doesn't seem that uncommon in California.

But if you work at Uber/Airbnb/Whatever out of that 400k total comp 250k is just paper money.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#438

Post by Bjartr »

RangerScience wrote: post #38

In terms of how to move the needle for early employees, at my prior (and first) startup, I watched us go from 15-20 employees to >300. One of the interesting things that struck me was how much advisement/mentor/training/etc investment went into the founders/C-team, and how little went into all the rest of us. (Totally reasonable that this was a situational thing, but I don't think it is). There's fame and reputation…

> One of the interesting things that struck me was how much advisement/mentor/training/etc investment went into the founders/C-team

Can you give a sense of how much that might be?

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#439

Post by arcticbull »

More than 'pros' and 'cons' I see working at a startup as requiring a certain kind of personality.

Working at a startup: Ideally you'd have a high risk tolerance, be self-motivated, be interested in learning new things -- being a do-whatever-it-takes kind of person. The kind of person who wants to throw themselves into their work. You want the kind of person who just can't sleep unless they get their product into peoples' hands. Everything may well be on fire -- all the time -- and it's up to you to fix it.

What you get being that kind of person at an early startup is a breadth of experience, often in things you weren't qualified for initially. You get oversize impact. You build your reputation -- fast. You get to build an amazing network of similar-minded people who you can leverage whether the startup goes well or poorly.

The cons, of course, are that it may not go your way. Either because of you, or because of reasons totally beyond your control. At any moment. You may make a ton of money, or no money, or anything in between. It's not the kind of workplace that's a good fit for everyone, or even for every life stage. Big companies offer effectively a 'guaranteed' way to make a 90th percentile salary, startups definitely don't.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#440

Post by toephu2 »

dunpeal wrote: post #268
CryoLogic wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

400k is an outlier for sr engineer or 1st level manager. Most all of them fall into 200-300/yr in the valley or Seattle at those companies.

400k is not unusual for a senior engineer working at big tech for several years in the Bay, Seattle, NYC, or even a city like LA. Base salary will be around 200K, and bonus would be another 200K. Can easily be 50-100K more than that on some years. Outlier would be 750K or more, which means the engineer is one of the most valuable members of the team.

The median T5 Google eng does not have 200k base. (It's less than that) and lol bonus is not 200k. Bonus is 15% of base. Not sure where you are pulling your numbers from but Facebook is very similar. Most senior devs at big tech are not making 200k base (more like 150-190k). It is more like top 20% making that base. But base doesn't matter. The money is in the RSUs anyway.
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