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USB Type-C is still a mess

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Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#71

Post by caconym_ »

sebazzz wrote: post #15
MBCook wrote: post #7

“Why doesn’t Apple just get rid of Lightning and use USB-C on their iPhones!” This is why. Ignoring the momentum Lightning had from being a few years older, this is a great reason not to switch. Sadly I know this has become a big problem for people on the new Macs. Plug a USB-C hub in? Now that port doesn’t do Thunderbolt or Display Port. How do you know that? Trial and error. Very un-Appley.

In my experience the connector from Apple is far more reliable than USB C. USB C is a rounded flat rectangle with a piece of plastic in the center and pins between, which is small and can easily be damaged. Lightning on the other hand is a solid metal connector with the pins/contacts on the outside, which is much more sturdier. Lighting also does a nice "click" when connected.

My experience says the opposite. I don't have an iPhone anymore, but when I did I was constantly having issues with the Lightning connector not connecting.

OTOH, all my USB-C devices, quite a few at this point and some I've had for years, have always worked flawlessly with regard to the port.

Also, all other things being equal, I would rather have the contact springs on the connector rather than the port so that if they go bad I can just replace the cable. I suspect this is what kept happening with my Lightning devices.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#72

Post by pdpi »

huebnerob wrote: post #32

There's two fundamentally unrelated but easily muddled situations here. A) USB-C PD, USB-C audio, or even just straight-up USB-C data devices, and/or USB-C hosts not adhering to standards. This is definitely a problem, but it's something that needs to be addressed by device manufacturers, not by the spec itself. B) Protocols other than USB over the USB-C connector (Thunderbolt 3, Displayport, potentially analog audio…

> Imagine for a moment that you had a magical morphing port

That's mostly the case with Apple's devices where all ports support all functionality, but there's products in the market where some but not all USB-C ports are Thunderbolt- or USBPD-enabled. This becomes a royal pain in the arse, where you have a bunch of ports that all look like they should support the peripheral you're trying to plug in, but don't, for some reason.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#73

Post by Milner08 »

Rebelgecko wrote: post #53
matthewmacleod wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple with their stupid single port is just idiotic This is on a single specific device. The best port selection with usb-c is on the 2015 chrome pixel laptop. 2 usb-c, 2 usb-b You mean USB-A. Just having a single usb-c has caused endless pain, all so apple could sell stupid dongles. Nobody I know using MacBooks has a particular problem with this. A dongle would be required in most cases to connect to an external dis…

OTOH literally everyone I know with the new MBP has this problem. They used to be able to use the HDMI port, but now they need a smattering of adapters for HDMI and minidisplayport. They also have trouble with the adapter not working when hotswapping ethernet cables

I just have a Thunderbolt 3 hub and it connects everything I need to a single port. Its actually much more convenient than before.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#74

Post by thfuran »

mikeash wrote: post #62
vertexFarm wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgive me for sounding extremely ignorant. I know this is not my area of specialty and I admit I'm about to sound stupid. I want to admit this right off the bat. Can't you just hook up the VCC and ground from any USB charging IC to a type-c socket? It's all +5v right? I don't understand why the type of connector dictates how fast a cable should be useful for charging. That seems like it should be up to the simple ga…

You can’t make that assumption at the end. These cables are as thin as they can possibly be to carry the maximum current they’re rated for. That maximum current could be 0.5A or it could be 5A. Try to pull 5A through a cable rated for 0.5A and you’re likely to burn the customer’s house down. You can’t really measure the resistance of the cable from one end. You can try to guess by watching for a voltage drop as you p…

Wait, so a USB-C cable cannot be a completely passive component?

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#75

Post by ct0 »

Latteland wrote: post #14

Not putting enough ports on devices is a crucial problem. Apple with their stupid single port is just idiotic. The best port selection with usb-c is on the 2015 chrome pixel laptop. 2 usb-c, 2 usb-a. Just having a single usb-c has caused endless pain, all so apple could sell stupid dongles. The new google pixelbook 2018 is a great form factor, except they only have 2 usb-c, they dropped usb-a. The reason was probably…

There are 2 usb-C ports on the X1 Carbon 6 as well

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#76

Post by astrodust »

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #18
frou_dh wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For one thing, Lightning is smaller. That's not just a technicality from looking at Wikipedia. Its design is noticeably more compact and overall nicer in terms of real-world "feel".

I understand Lightning is a worse connector because it places the “moving parts” (the bendable pins) in the recipient “female” socket in the host device which is subject to more wear-and-tear than the insertable plug which is on the cable which is more disposable. USB-C corrects this by placing more of the mechanical complexity in the plug again - though I’m wary of the thin plastic “tongue” in the socket.

It's trade-offs. The pins are very durable, it's hard to push the connector in at an angle that'd wreck them, but that tongue can get bent by forcing it.

Older micro-USB devices suffered the same problems.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#77

Post by orbitingpluto »

dmitrygr wrote: post #40
orbitingpluto wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not having USB-C on my laptop doesn't even matter. The Google Pixels 1/2/C and Nexus 6P have USB-C, but they don't transfer data at that speed. I also don't want to fry my devices however and I'm scared of these poor quality miswired cables, so I am a steadfast advocate of buying my USB-C cables from Anker.

Pixel 2 does actually do usb 3 speeds if you have a usb 3 host and cable.

I stand corrected.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#78

Post by MBCook »

pdpi wrote: post #45
matthewmacleod wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple with their stupid single port is just idiotic This is on a single specific device. The best port selection with usb-c is on the 2015 chrome pixel laptop. 2 usb-c, 2 usb-b You mean USB-A. Just having a single usb-c has caused endless pain, all so apple could sell stupid dongles. Nobody I know using MacBooks has a particular problem with this. A dongle would be required in most cases to connect to an external dis…

> A dongle would be required in most cases to connect to an external display in any case Is it? You'd need to be using a display that provides neither DisplayPort nor HDMI. HDMI tends to be available on even somewhat older displays, and most modern ones I've dealt with definitely have both.

The equivalent Macs to the MacBook One would have had mini-DP. I don’t think they had HDMI. So you’d need an adapter.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#79

Post by MBCook »

jrockway wrote: post #54

I remember arguing with people when Type-C was new; they told me it would change the world, I told them it would never work. The problem is... they made everything optional, and thus when a user sees a Type-C port, they have no idea what to expect. Will it work with a device that requires Thunderbolt? Will it drive a DisplayPort monitor? Will this charger charge their laptop? Will this charger charge their phone? The…

I’m not sure optionality is the problem so much as they didn’t NEED to combine three things into one.

If USB-C has video and USB it would be pretty great. Video could be optional but that’s easy enough.

But Thunderbolt is a HUGE complication. It should have used some other connector and then this stuff would be easy enough to figure out but you’d still get plenty of benefit.

Of course TB already used the Mini-DP connector, so that would have made video out a mess. And it was too late to fix that.

And leaving all three separate is it’s own mess.

I’m not sure there was a good solution at this point. Which seems like a lack of planning.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#80

Post by MBCook »

pdpi wrote: post #72
huebnerob wrote: post #32

There's two fundamentally unrelated but easily muddled situations here. A) USB-C PD, USB-C audio, or even just straight-up USB-C data devices, and/or USB-C hosts not adhering to standards. This is definitely a problem, but it's something that needs to be addressed by device manufacturers, not by the spec itself. B) Protocols other than USB over the USB-C connector (Thunderbolt 3, Displayport, potentially analog audio…

> Imagine for a moment that you had a magical morphing port That's mostly the case with Apple's devices where all ports support all functionality, but there's products in the market where some but not all USB-C ports are Thunderbolt- or USBPD-enabled. This becomes a royal pain in the arse, where you have a bunch of ports that all look like they should support the peripheral you're trying to plug in, but don't, for so…

So put a USB-C hub (because that’s the connector, what else would you buy?) into your Mac. And you plug your display into that. And it has some USB-C and Thunderbolt stuff plugged in.

It used to all work, but now with the hub in-line your Thunderbolt drive doesn’t work and your display doesn’t get a signal.

The hub must be broken, right? So you buy a new one. Same problem.

How is any normal person supposed to figure this stuff out?

You’re right. It’s a total mess.

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