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GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

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Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#171

Post by mmjaa »

user5994461 wrote: post #156
gmjosack wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a bias to assume the candidate won't understand those things or be suitable for the job based on lack of college alone. If you require people to understand complexity, compilers, and graphs to do the job effectively then test for those. I've encountered plenty of people with degrees who similarly didn't understand those concepts. I definitely agree that lack of education is a disadvantage, it just means…

I think we both agree. The lack of degree will mean years of bad jobs and learning the hard way though practice, before it can be compensated. It's years of struggling on the job, instead of in the college.

.. making money rather than going into debt.

Plus there's the uncomfortable fact for academics that the state of the art is often pushed forward in industry, and written about in academy. So, sometimes, the job is really, really good. You're doing stuff now that kids will be learning about in 5 years...

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#172

Post by underwater »

vonmoltke wrote: post #145
underwater wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t code much in my spare time. I have kids and a busy home life, but really it doesn’t take long to build up a portfolio of work that is representative of your skills. Sharing my work got me, as an Aussie working mediocre jobs, on the right person’s radar to help me land a job at Facebook. This shaved probably 10 years off my career path. That was a great return on investment and a big leveller for someone who d…

> I have kids and a busy home life, but really it doesn’t take long to build up a portfolio of work that is representative of your skills. There are two critical assumptions you are making here: 1) The kind of development you do is conducive to sharing via small projects on GitHub. The first four years of my full-time programing career I was working on firm real-time signal processing algorithms designed to run on an…

You’re right. I’ve worked in the frontend space for a long time, which lends itself nicely to the GitHub model.

I don’t see why you’d bother trying to force your work into that model. If it’s not common in your industry then there is no one to compete against in GitHub stakes. Sounds like publishing a paper or being awarded a patent would have the same Effect of signalling that you’re good at what you do.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#173

Post by alien_ »

hocuspocus wrote: post #146
alien_ wrote: post #132

Nowadays most software depends on open source one way or another, and as developer you will eventually run into issues with the open source software that you depend on. Also, larger companies internally operate much like an open source community, having multiple projects that accept contributions from anyone in the company. Reporting and fixing public issues as part of your employment is a sign that you care about th…

> It also shows that you have no problem with learning a new code base and delivering code according to that project's quality standards. If you can tell your employer you'll spend the next sprint or two fixing a bug upstream, good for you! From my experience working with complex libraries, when you hit a bug or a corner case, it is probably not going to be an easy fix. There's a reason many open source projects are…

Companies should invest in the open source they depend on, otherwise they will need to re-implement it from scratch or maintain an in-house fork with higher costs. You may be spending those sprints implementing a workaround that you will then have to touch again when the problem is eventually fixed upstream, or you will run a private fork that you're stuck with forever and will have a hard time maintaining.

As for the complexity, from my experience it's a mix. There are indeed many complex issues, but often times the fixes are relatively easy and take little time to fix.

For the hard ones it's often enough if you can contribute to the conversation to better understand the problem, providing valuable information on how to reproduce, so that someone familiar with the code base can solve it easier.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#174

Post by vkbandi »

onion2k wrote: post #10

The point people are making about using GitHub profiles for hiring is that it ignores great developers who don't write code outside of their job (that might be due to other interests, family responsibilities, a second job, whatever). The fact this guy is in a position to write code in his spare time just means he's not in that group, and the fact his open source work on Github specifically landed him a job he wanted…

Some companies does not allow employees to write code outside of work, I work in a 50+ Billion company, whose policies clearly state that, you can be fired for writing code even in your free time. We even have a "training" to clear any misunderstandings, It has been conveyed explicitly with past examples of people getting fired.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#175

Post by KirinDave »

ahartmetz wrote: post #123
KirinDave wrote: post #105

> Because open-source is good at cutting through the bullshit, it also makes it an equalizer. That's one heck of a premise.

You mean open source doesn't cut through the bullshit? It totally does. People can put anything on their resume and sometimes bullshit their way through questions trying to figure out whether they've actually done these things. If all else fails, they can claim trade secrets. Open source contributions can't be faked (except by real name collision), and in any case, there is much more detail available than a few lines…

> People can put anything on their resume and sometimes bullshit their way through questions trying to figure out whether they've actually done these things. If all else fails, they can claim trade secrets.

They can perform similar tactics on github: like mirroring an obscure but technically in-depth project without attribution, paying someone to write code and then committing it in your name (I've seen this done!), or making sure to get lots of extra commit density by doing one feature or bugfix after successfully landing a series of reformatting PRs.

An applicant planning to fake their way past you is genuinely hard to catch unless your process is tuned for it. The idea that there is a one-size-fits all interview process and that process is as simple as, "Check their github" is lazy to the point of malpractice. It's a goofy premise, and it's playing right into the hand of people who want to abuse you.

And this is just addressing the problematic nature of modern tooling for positive signals. Given the pervasive nature of harassment culture in the open source world, you should ALWAYS excuse the absence of open source work. It cannot be a requirement because the open source world can often become extremely hostile and/or political.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#176

Post by bravenewthrow »

duckduckno wrote: post #115
mmjaa wrote: post #72

I have been working productively as a systems software developer for 32 years. I do not have a degree; I'm a high-school dropout. I've built systems you've probably used, and/or may still be using. The #1 technical lever I have found worth exploiting, worth far more than anything a university can provide, is the willingness to get the job done. It hasn't mattered if I wrote CP/M code ISR's, PROGRESS 4GL modules, Unix…

I've recently dropped out of highschool and I've been considering two options: promptly returning to school and finishing my degree or dedicating time to self-educate via the internet. Which pathway would you suggest? I have always felt conflicted about our current education system because it undervalues creativity and disingenuously puts forth the notion that school is for learning when clearly it is not. Teachers c…

Test out of high school.

Get a job in tech.

Go to school and get a degree in the Humanities.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#177

Post by tekknik »

noitsnot wrote: post #155
koboll wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never been asked about any education in developer interviews, only experience. Obviously YMMV, but after a couple years of experience, employers simply stop caring about education level.

I'm 100% sure I am passed-over and filtered out because I don't have a CS degree. Nevermind my experience, I don't hit the checkbox. HR and IT managers have it in their mind they NEED it. However, I relate well to managers without a CS degree.

it be interesting to know how these phone interviews went. if you’re not even getting that far then you don’t want to work for a company that requires a degree. all a degree gets you is a base level of knowledge, you’re not gaining any useful experience. all that usually counts is if you can prove the knowledge without a degree. if you’re making it to the phone interviews then someone else must be more a more viable candidate than you

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#178

Post by user5994461 »

bskap wrote: post #165
user5994461 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> College is definitely the most typical paths but there are still paths for humble people willing to start that the bottom and work hard. College just isn't an option for everyone unfortunately. I agree with pretty much everything you said. I will just make a cultural parenthesis on that last sentence. In the USA, degrees are expensive, the only reason they are not for everyone. It limits the supply of degrees and…

What measure are you using for "much more common"? According to the OECD data, the US is 7th for percent of population 16-64 with a post-secondary degree, and Luxembourg is the only western European country ahead of the US (the others are Canada, Russia, Israel, Japan, and South Korea). If you limit it to 25-34 year olds with at least a 4 year degree, the US falls to be in the middle of the pack compared to western E…

The bachelor is usually 3 years in Europe and not every country is following the bachelor/master/phd system.

So you are saying that the amount of bachelor+ in USA is on par with the amount of master+ in Europe. That's my point, Europeans have higher education because it's free.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#179

Post by Chyzwar »

watwut wrote: post #168
Chyzwar wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OSS is better, even MS now advocate for Open Source. OSS is just a hiring signal. You need to review around 100 CV for a single position, you need these signals. In the same time if you want to progress quickly to the Senior position you need to prove your worth. What is a better way: describing how great developer you are in Cover Letter that no one read or having OSS contributions.

Majority of MS developers work on close source. They are not slacking in work afaik and majority don't do open source in their free time. Even if they would hire on oss, majority of new emplyes would be disappointed to find that they are under too much pressure to produce in work to continue. Overwhelming majority if companies don't have 100 CV on position, our salaries would go down quick if that would be case. I ne…

> Majority of MS developers work on close source.

That true, but major industry shift already happened. Literally, everyone is building on top of OSS.

> Overwhelming majority if companies don't have 100 CV on position.

You get around that many CV unless your company sucks(Glassdoor reviews) or you do not want to pay(Startup).

Pre-screening is done by HR/Agency. In some cases, you have even more leads that your Requiter is cold calling. Engineer running interviews will get 10-30 CVs per position.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#180

Post by watwut »

Chyzwar wrote: post #179
watwut wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Majority of MS developers work on close source. They are not slacking in work afaik and majority don't do open source in their free time. Even if they would hire on oss, majority of new emplyes would be disappointed to find that they are under too much pressure to produce in work to continue. Overwhelming majority if companies don't have 100 CV on position, our salaries would go down quick if that would be case. I ne…

> Majority of MS developers work on close source. That true, but major industry shift already happened. Literally, everyone is building on top of OSS. > Overwhelming majority if companies don't have 100 CV on position. You get around that many CV unless your company sucks(Glassdoor reviews) or you do not want to pay(Startup). Pre-screening is done by HR/Agency. In some cases, you have even more leads that your Requit…

> That true, but major industry shift already happened. Literally, everyone is building on top of OSS.

They are building close source on top of OSS. They are producing close source while using open source libraries. I find it odd that you would decide to limit your pool of applicants on those from few oss projects and rejected the rest of ms employees.

That is my point: majority of employed programmers produce close source application in companies that expect them not to slack off. That oss is used inside does not matter.

> You get around that many CV unless your company sucks(Glassdoor reviews) or you do not want to pay(Startup).

Uhm. Again, why are salaries not falling down? Why is everyone crying that they can not find people? Why don't that company does not specify in more concrete details who are they looking for so that people who wont like position self select out?

> Pre-screening is done by HR/Agency. In some cases, you have even more leads that your Requiter is cold calling. Engineer running interviews will get 10-30 CVs per position

That would explain a lot, mostly why there is simultaneous cry of lack of people, simultaneously too many applicants and simultaneously recruiters doing cold calling.

All in all, it sounds like broken hiring process.

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