Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All • Hacker News Board

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#181

Post by conanbatt » Sat, Jun 09, 2018, 2:24 AM UTC

chc wrote: post #158

collyw wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My friend used to use this argument when I complained that Uber / Deliveroo were a bag of crap. I didn´t have a great counterargument, I just mumbled something about workers rights. What is a convincing argument that this line of thinking is wrong?

If I put a gun to your head and say "Your wallet or your life," are you free? If I lay a trap, and you fall into it, and I offer to release you if you give me your bank details, are you free? If it's a disaster and I charge $10000 for a bottle of clean water, are you free? If a society requires you to work in order to live but only offers you poor options for work, are you free? We generally talk as though, as long a…

Its very important to understand that free is freedom from men. Freedom from nature is not something we know a way out of yet.

Who would say that someone using a gun to coerce you is free?

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#182

Post by conanbatt » Sat, Jun 09, 2018, 2:26 AM UTC

losteric wrote: post #166

roenxi wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The labor market is never free, because living isn't free - almost every participant is coerced. Your actual post is mostly reasonable arguments, but this premise is not realistic. This is stretching the word 'coerced' to the point where it doesn't mean anything. The fact that resources are limited and we need the average person to add about as much value as they consume is not coercion. It is a (very sad) fact. Th…

> Are these people born with "only allowed to work as a car driver" stamped on their forehead? Did you see what I said about poverty traps? Once someone is stuck, it's very challenging to break out without outside help. > The difficulties of moving between industries are real, I'll acknowledge them and say maybe there is a role for the government to facilitate this aspect. However, as a practical point, I don't think…

>Did you see what I said about poverty traps? Once someone is stuck, it's very challenging to break out without outside help.

We need to agree on where the poverty traps come from first to then reason if government is the solution.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#183

Post by GabrielBen » Sat, Jun 09, 2018, 2:26 AM UTC

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #151

collyw wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My friend used to use this argument when I complained that Uber / Deliveroo were a bag of crap. I didn´t have a great counterargument, I just mumbled something about workers rights. What is a convincing argument that this line of thinking is wrong?

There's an episode of econtalk with Elizabeth Anderson you should listen to. She basically says employers are similar to communist dictatorships. In the same way that the 'freedom' to move from one communist dictatorship to another isn't real freedom, the 'freedom' to move from one employer to another isn't real freedom. Check it out, she makes the argument better than I do, obviously.

[flagged]

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#184

Post by jlarocco » Sat, Jun 09, 2018, 2:29 AM UTC

knuththetruth wrote: post #107

jlarocco wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone who actually thought the gig economy was helping anyone but business owners was either deluded or a shill. It's more accurate to say business owners and consumers are benefiting at the expense of the employees.

The idea that “consumers” are a separate class from employees is specious. There’s only labor and Capital owners, with the latter doing a wonderful job of turning the former against themselves.

Well clearly a consumer in one context is usually an employee (or capital owner) in another.

In this particular case the consumers who are benefiting are generally a different group than the employees who are losing out, so I don't see why you bothered to point this out.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#185

Post by conanbatt » Sat, Jun 09, 2018, 2:30 AM UTC

knuththetruth wrote: post #107

jlarocco wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone who actually thought the gig economy was helping anyone but business owners was either deluded or a shill. It's more accurate to say business owners and consumers are benefiting at the expense of the employees.

The idea that “consumers” are a separate class from employees is specious. There’s only labor and Capital owners, with the latter doing a wonderful job of turning the former against themselves.

I'd like to see an economist defending this assertion.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#186

Post by conanbatt » Sat, Jun 09, 2018, 2:33 AM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #23

justin wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe productivity metrics aren't a perfect measure of society. On many qualitative dimensions we have a much higher quality of living now because of computers: You can talk to anyone almost anywhere in the world for free, instantly. You can recall any information or media instantly. The list goes on..

Continuing the beer theme of my sidethread comment, I read a piece years ago making the point that the then-current explosion of microbreweries looked like a productivity disaster -- microbreweries produce a gallon of beer for a much higher cost than Anheuser-Busch does, so when an economist working with national-level data divides "beer produced in 2011" by "dollars spent producing beer in 2011", it looks like beer…

Thats because Utility is a very hard thing to measure, being so subjective and individual.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#187

Post by conanbatt » Sat, Jun 09, 2018, 2:34 AM UTC

jpao79 wrote: post #74

lkrubner wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good comment. It is interesting to consider how much rhetoric there is about robots and AI and Machine Learning and how these technologies can revolutionize work and lead to big productivity gains. And yet, in reality, the economy shows no sign of this. Productivity growth was very strong in the mid-20th century, but since 1973 productivity growth has been stagnant.

Reminds me of this article: Google and Facebook contribute zero economic value. That's a big problem for trade. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/innovations/wp/2016/10/2...

Really, 0 economic value. Nobody gets anything of value from using those services, its just wasted time.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#188

Post by taigeair » Sat, Jun 09, 2018, 3:34 AM UTC

mrtksn wrote: post #42

When I first arrived in London my English was not good enough to speak on the phone, I had no idea what the London job market for developers looked like, I had no idea where should I live and where should I settle. So for the first 3-4 months, I did some wine waiting as a gig(agency work, no fixed place or hours. Like with Uber, you provide your own gear - like uniforms, bottle openers etc.) at the finest, the most i…

I did that too! Blue Arrow? Interesting to hear your story. I'm having flashbacks.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#189

Post by Kalium » Sat, Jun 09, 2018, 3:57 AM UTC

chc wrote: post #158

collyw wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My friend used to use this argument when I complained that Uber / Deliveroo were a bag of crap. I didn´t have a great counterargument, I just mumbled something about workers rights. What is a convincing argument that this line of thinking is wrong?

If I put a gun to your head and say "Your wallet or your life," are you free? If I lay a trap, and you fall into it, and I offer to release you if you give me your bank details, are you free? If it's a disaster and I charge $10000 for a bottle of clean water, are you free? If a society requires you to work in order to live but only offers you poor options for work, are you free? We generally talk as though, as long a…

By the logic you use here, there is no such thing as freedom. There are always limits imposed on people by others, situations, society, nature, and physics. Therefore, there is no actual freedom for anyone.

It seems to me that invalidating the notion of freedom might not be what you set out to do. Instead, you're trying to make a point wherein people are only truly free if they have some options that are favorable. Do I interpret you correctly?

In that case, what's "favorable"? Who defines and judges such things? What standards are used? I know people who are capable and skilled and thus offered highly remunerative positions that they don't want to take because of who is hiring - is that favorable or unfavorable? Reasonable arguments for both spring readily to mind. Are we to use an individual's personal preferences only?

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#190

Post by Kalium » Sat, Jun 09, 2018, 3:59 AM UTC

conanbatt wrote: post #185

knuththetruth wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that “consumers” are a separate class from employees is specious. There’s only labor and Capital owners, with the latter doing a wonderful job of turning the former against themselves.

I'd like to see an economist defending this assertion.

You won't. An economist would point out that capital owners are also consumers and often employees, meaning that there's really only one class of people.

Which parent would not agree with, as they are offering a straightforward Marxist reading.