Linus Torvalds on aliasing • Hacker News Board

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#211

Post by erric » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 11:14 AM UTC

kristianc wrote: post #168

ralfn wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it comes to being oversensitive needy little things there is no true Scottsman. As a northern European I find it not only comfortable that Linus runs Linux, but I would be less comfortable if it was another American smile in face pretend to be your friend but be shady as fuck attitude that you guys seem to confuse for 'professionalism'. So let's chalk this to cultural differences. We wouldn't hire someone like y…

> As a northern European I find it not only comfortable that Linus runs Linux, but I would be less comfortable if it was another American smile in face pretend to be your friend but be shady as fuck attitude that you guys seem to confuse for 'professionalism'. This is a false dichotomy. Most of what Linus says would run foul of HN's guidelines - which I'll paraphrase here as "don't call someone an asshole before maki…

Having lived in Europe for two years now, that’s a very common perception of US Americans

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#212

Post by Veedrac » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 11:15 AM UTC

rcxdude wrote: post #164

Veedrac wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is well-defined. "One special guarantee is made in order to simplify the use of unions: if a union contains several structures that share a common initial sequence (see below), and if the union object currently contains one of these structures, it is permitted to inspect the common initial part of any of them anywhere that a declaration of the complete type of the union is visible. Two structures share a common…

This does technically require that a union of those structs exists, even though it is not used. I don't know of any compiler for which this actually makes a difference though.

Ah, I misunderstood the context, you are right to clarify this.

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#213

Post by nabla9 » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 11:21 AM UTC

Swearing and profanity is an art form. Habitual swearing is bad style just like habitual use of smileys and LOL's.

If Linus would habitually curse in the kernel list, it would have no emphasis effect and it would be a really bad style. Linus using cursing in a rant equals [for wider distribution] and it works perfectly. I can't remember a single discussion linked to HN that didn't start from cursing. It provided the opportunity for people to be offended. For technical people it's a challenge (like a glove slap).

Example:

* his opinion about hardening: https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/11/21/356

* previous message that collected the attention: "Those security people are f*cking morons." https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/11/17/767

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#214

Post by mannykannot » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 11:28 AM UTC

ralfn wrote: post #181

kristianc wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a northern European I find it not only comfortable that Linus runs Linux, but I would be less comfortable if it was another American smile in face pretend to be your friend but be shady as fuck attitude that you guys seem to confuse for 'professionalism'. This is a false dichotomy. Most of what Linus says would run foul of HN's guidelines - which I'll paraphrase here as "don't call someone an asshole before maki…

When somebody speaks their mind, everybody around them knows where they stand. I doubt there is difference between about how often people resent other people around the world. But I do consider it more humane if resentment isn't hidden under the surface. It's easier to trust Linus than a tactfull politician. That should make us all think.

One circumstance where insults might be justified is where one party has ignored valid objections to his position.

I mention this here because kristianic made the valid point that you have set up a false dichotomy, and you replied with a statement that keeps it going. Is the habit of not paying attention to the actual issues also part of your superior Northern European culture, and, in fact, is it perhaps a reason why insults are apparently such an important part of it?

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#215

Post by boomlinde » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 11:28 AM UTC

minipci1321 wrote: post #91

ensiferum wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

memcpy is legal and fine. To borrow the example from above: double d = 3.14; uint64_t i; memcpy(&i, &d, sizeof(d)); is perfectly kosher.

> is perfectly kosher Aren't exact-bitwidth integer types optional even with C99 (let alone preceding versions of standard)?

They are optional, but only in the sense that if you can't exactly represent e.g. uint64_t, there can't be a uint64_t type. So the example above is kosher in the sense that it's standards compliant, even if it isn't perfectly portable (for reasons unrelated to memset type punning; that you're using uint64_t in the first place).

If an implementation can't represent uint64_t exactly, it can still have a uint_least64_t type of whatever width works.

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#216

Post by berti » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 11:30 AM UTC

stefan_ wrote: post #80

caf wrote: post #27

It's important to bear in mind that Linux isn't written in standard C - it's written in a dialect of C implemented by recent-ish versions of GCC (there is a particular minimum GCC version supported), with certain compiler switches. There's nothing wrong with this - it's an important enough project to be able to make those kinds of demands.

Android kernels are built with Clang. So really it's just missing support for MSVC, for obvious reasons.

For now, at least [1][2]. See the rest of that thread.. llvm guys really don't want asm goto, and kernel really wants it.

[1] https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/2/14/724 [2] https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/2/14/157

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#217

Post by finnthehuman » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 11:32 AM UTC

rdsubhas wrote: post #171

ralfn wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it comes to being oversensitive needy little things there is no true Scottsman. As a northern European I find it not only comfortable that Linus runs Linux, but I would be less comfortable if it was another American smile in face pretend to be your friend but be shady as fuck attitude that you guys seem to confuse for 'professionalism'. So let's chalk this to cultural differences. We wouldn't hire someone like y…

While Linus may be right, why is it that we always find only "Linus ranting out against people" threads that trend? In a positive way, why don't we have "Linus gets ranted against" posts? Is it because Linus is always right? Or is it because nobody speaks up against Linus? Or is it because Linus isn't actively coding much since git days? Or is it just because it happens but doesn't get as much visibility? I'm just as…

>I'm just asking this to see if this culture is one way or goes both ways...

That won't tell you anything about LKML culture, either.

If you want a better sense of lkml than social media hot takes can deliver, go lurk it for a month.

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#218

Post by emerged » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 11:36 AM UTC

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #179

netule wrote: post #43

Notice that after his rant, he still tested the code, and merged it: https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/6/5/774

Which shows how pointless the rant was.

I have no problem with the rant, just question its emotional source (presumably negative emotion from other areas of his personal life)

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#219

Post by Forge36 » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 11:37 AM UTC

How well do they know each other? Is it possible Rafael (the contributor) wasn't as upset by this as an outside observer?

Linus is obviously being harsh, his words are also preserved publicly as a part of the contribution. He's arguing against the logical fallacy. Had he not swore: would we discuss this?

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#220

Post by rainbowmverse » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 11:44 AM UTC

cryon wrote: post #141

mosselman wrote: post #119

I would go out of my way to avoid people who communicate like this with me. People put time and energy in making software better, at least in their own eyes, for others and then they get textually abused like this by someone who has his fame to protect himself with. He also does no service to his own arguments by peppering them with childish swearing because things like "So standards are not some kind of holy book th…

I can't stand when you're expected to wrap every sentence in some sugar coated fake 'niceness' just to not step on somebody's toes. If I have a certain way of expressing myself... Well that's how it is.

>> If I have a certain way of expressing myself... Well that's how it is.

You shouldn't sell yourself short. Changing the way you communicate is a huge but worthwhile challenge.

In a different time, I would have been mean to you over your comment instead of offering supportive words. It took as much effort to be nice as it used to take to be mean.