Linus Torvalds on aliasing • Hacker News Board

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#141

Post by cryon » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 9:17 AM UTC

mosselman wrote: post #119

I would go out of my way to avoid people who communicate like this with me. People put time and energy in making software better, at least in their own eyes, for others and then they get textually abused like this by someone who has his fame to protect himself with. He also does no service to his own arguments by peppering them with childish swearing because things like "So standards are not some kind of holy book th…

I can't stand when you're expected to wrap every sentence in some sugar coated fake 'niceness' just to not step on somebody's toes. If I have a certain way of expressing myself... Well that's how it is.

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#142

Post by richmarr » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 9:18 AM UTC

ralfn wrote: post #124

mosselman wrote: post #119

I would go out of my way to avoid people who communicate like this with me. People put time and energy in making software better, at least in their own eyes, for others and then they get textually abused like this by someone who has his fame to protect himself with. He also does no service to his own arguments by peppering them with childish swearing because things like "So standards are not some kind of holy book th…

When it comes to being oversensitive needy little things there is no true Scottsman. As a northern European I find it not only comfortable that Linus runs Linux, but I would be less comfortable if it was another American smile in face pretend to be your friend but be shady as fuck attitude that you guys seem to confuse for 'professionalism'. So let's chalk this to cultural differences. We wouldn't hire someone like y…

As another Northern European I disassociate myself from your comment.

Yes, there are cultural differences between the US and Europe.

No, that doesn't mean that Europe agrees with your opinion on what constitutes acceptable behaviour in the software community. You do not speak for us.

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#143

Post by gpderetta » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 9:18 AM UTC

Athas wrote: post #69

blorsh wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, type punning via unions is a gcc extension. The standard only allows reading a value as the type it was written with or as char, and an access as char is only good for copying. If a char access used different bit order, that would be OK according to the standard because you couldn't tell unless you violated the standard. It seems every compiler will tolerate a memcpy for type punning, even though this isn't requi…

Does this mean that memcpy() is really more of a language construct than a library function, since it cannot be implemented correctly in fully defined standard C?

Everything defined in the standard is in principle a language construct: whether it is builtin in the compiler or an actual function is an implementation detail. For many compilers, memcpy is both: they have builtin handling for it but fall back to the library implementation when there is no optimization opportunities.

Having said that, it is possible to implement memcopy in standard C: char pointers have an explicit special exemption to the aliasing rule so you are allowed to inspect objects as array of chars.

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#144

Post by maxehmookau » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 9:18 AM UTC

renox wrote: post #139

maxehmookau wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not American. I'm just a respectful human being who expects to be treated with respect at work.

And in my opinion there was nothing disrespectful in Linus'email (expect towards the standard people, but they truly did a big mistake..) so I wouldn't want to work with you as you seem 'overly sensitive'..

Big mistakes happen.

Solutions to those mistakes are rarely found by publicly demonising those who made the mistake.

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#145

Post by Angostura » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 9:19 AM UTC

zaarn wrote: post #66

solotronics wrote: post #31

I never really understood why people complain about Linus personality. If you don't like it go somewhere else nobody is forcing you to code for Linux. Fork it and make your own.

Linus shows this behavior more rarely rather than often (about once a month) and usually in the direction of people he knows can take a bit of a rant.

Yeh, I get the impression he does it with people he would have a beer with.

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#146

Post by Angostura » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 9:20 AM UTC

qaq wrote: post #136

AnthonBerg wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PC? This is not politically correct, this is an opinion based on free will and self-respect. “I don’t want to volunteer where the boss is an abusive asshole.” By what definition is that PC?

using profanity and being "abusive asshole" are orthogonal concepts. I obviously do not encourage anyone to volunteer in projects they feel uncomfortable with.

They may be orthogonal. Often, however, they are related.

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#147

Post by cncrnd » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 9:21 AM UTC

ralfn wrote: post #124

mosselman wrote: post #119

I would go out of my way to avoid people who communicate like this with me. People put time and energy in making software better, at least in their own eyes, for others and then they get textually abused like this by someone who has his fame to protect himself with. He also does no service to his own arguments by peppering them with childish swearing because things like "So standards are not some kind of holy book th…

When it comes to being oversensitive needy little things there is no true Scottsman. As a northern European I find it not only comfortable that Linus runs Linux, but I would be less comfortable if it was another American smile in face pretend to be your friend but be shady as fuck attitude that you guys seem to confuse for 'professionalism'. So let's chalk this to cultural differences. We wouldn't hire someone like y…

Do you feel that your views are cultural and not unique to yourself? Maybe I should look into moving because I am tired of smiling dummies.

That being said, I feel that if I were in a managerial position here in the Bay Area I would probably adopt a smile and softer language because that's what people are used to. The challenge is being genuine while putting people at ease so that they can do their best work.

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#148

Post by icebraining » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 9:24 AM UTC

mosselman wrote: post #119

I would go out of my way to avoid people who communicate like this with me. People put time and energy in making software better, at least in their own eyes, for others and then they get textually abused like this by someone who has his fame to protect himself with. He also does no service to his own arguments by peppering them with childish swearing because things like "So standards are not some kind of holy book th…

by someone who has his fame to protect himself with.

He never needed any protection; Linus always wrote like this. Back in the argument with Tanenbaum in '92, when he was a nobody, he already wrote stuff like "your job is being a professor and researcher: That's one hell of a good excuse for some of the brain-damages of minix. I can only hope (and assume) that Amoeba doesn't suck like minix does."

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#149

Post by richmarr » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 9:24 AM UTC

zwischenzug wrote: post #138

mosselman wrote: post #119

I would go out of my way to avoid people who communicate like this with me. People put time and energy in making software better, at least in their own eyes, for others and then they get textually abused like this by someone who has his fame to protect himself with. He also does no service to his own arguments by peppering them with childish swearing because things like "So standards are not some kind of holy book th…

My wife works in mental health, dealing with people at the very lowest ebb. You'd think the therapists' internal meetings would be full of carefully worded and graded polite discussion, but just yesterday she told me about a meeting where the lead therapist said to one particular member of the group, 'If you don't do X right, we're fucked. You are fucking us up!' I don't know if that's good or not, but it's not just…

Presumably your wife is dealing with complex issues where there are real conflicts that require real words, unlike this situation. This is a non-conflict that Torvalds turned into one.

In this case, Torvalds is swearing at someone who agrees with him (see Andy Shevchenko's response) because he hasn't bothered to seek clarification before calling it "pure and utter garbage".

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#150

Post by cbluth » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 9:25 AM UTC

richmarr wrote: post #142

ralfn wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it comes to being oversensitive needy little things there is no true Scottsman. As a northern European I find it not only comfortable that Linus runs Linux, but I would be less comfortable if it was another American smile in face pretend to be your friend but be shady as fuck attitude that you guys seem to confuse for 'professionalism'. So let's chalk this to cultural differences. We wouldn't hire someone like y…

As another Northern European I disassociate myself from your comment. Yes, there are cultural differences between the US and Europe. No, that doesn't mean that Europe agrees with your opinion on what constitutes acceptable behaviour in the software community. You do not speak for us.

There is no true Northern European.