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AI at Google: our principles

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231–240 of 418 posts

Re: AI at Google: our principles

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MAD was based on the concept of the 'Nuclear Club' - the barrier to entry was the mass defect ratio, which you'd have to calculate on your own, and then you'd confront nation-state level expenses of turning that knowledge into practical engineering. It had an inherent cap on the number of possible players. Not saying it was nice, it was just manageable. The barriers to entry here are much lower. For smaller players,…

I guess my point is (and it looks like we agree): good luck getting all billion+ people on the planet with a credit card to agree that building a kill bot is a bad idea. All it takes is for one of those people to disagree, build them, and then we all must have them.

>All it takes is for one of those people to disagree, build them, and then we all must have them.

A killbot is (more or less) a mobile booby trap. If we have a problem with madmen leaving booby traps around, we can't solve that by laying more booby traps.

Re: AI at Google: our principles

#232
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turning away will slow things down but AI for military applications will happen. Someone will fill the void.

Inevitable isnt the same thing as right. After all, everyone inevitably dies, so why not murder them.

If someone will inevitably develop nuclear weapons, then it is right to develop nuclear weapons even if it "just" create s mutually assured destruction, as opposed to abstaining and thus ensuring dominance of whoever does decide to develop them.

Re: AI at Google: our principles

#233
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "we (read: our employees) would prefer to not work on weapons systems" have to do with a "self-righteous belief in their superiority over the American people"? I'm honestly confused as to how those two concepts are connected. The connection is the hubris that enables Google to benefit from public largesse while simultaneously believing itself to be superior to it (and by extension, the public). Like it or n…

>itself to be superior to it I'm still confused as to how "we don't want to work on systems that kill people" is in any way "superiority". In fact, reading your comments you seem to suggest that any entity (any individual even!) who has a moral objection to working on military technology, but who uses any modern technology believes themselves superior to the public. But that description describes a large minority (or…

In my comments, I repeatedly say that individuals should not be compelled to work on military technology, except in times of war. Hardly confusing.

> In fact, reading your comments you seem to suggest that any entity (any individual even!) who has a moral objection to working on military technology, but who uses any modern technology believes themselves superior to the public. But that description describes a large minority (or perhaps a majority!) of the population.

I do not know how one could read that into my comments. At this point, I'm beginning to think you're being deliberately obtuse. Google doesn't just use this technology like you or me, it benefits, i.e., enriches itself immensely to the tune of billions of dollars every quarter! It also becomes much more powerful and further embeds itself into the lives of ordinary people in this process.

> You appear to say that Google's sense of superiority stems from its objection to working on military technology. But I think that description applies to much of the public.

I do not think that description applies to much of the public, which lives outside the SV bubble. But I will concede that this is something that's debatable.

> That is to say, I find it likely that most of the public would object to working on AI for drones. Yet you're arguing that the objection to working on AI for drones makes one believe them-self superior to the public. In other words, most of the public believes themselves to be superior to...themselves.

Here, again, you are twisting my words and ascribing meaning that simply doesn't follow from what I have said.

I am definitely saying that Google the corporation and leadership in Silicon Valley suffers from the hubris that they can simultaneously benefit (i.e., make billions of dollars) off the fruits of research that's quite explicitly geared toward military technology, and they can rebuff those very same benefactors without consequences (and while holding the moral high ground). These benefactors are Government agencies, that exist to carry out the will of the people (nominally, at least).

Re: AI at Google: our principles

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I can only refuse to play and hope the Russians et al come to their senses, the United Nations starts to work better, etc. If we go down that road, it will be the end of most of us, if not all of us. We really have no chance against a machine that's decided to shoot us. As a species we need to have zero tolerance for it - we won't be rendered extinct by snazzy terminators, we'll be killed by the 21st century ver…

This is a bit dramatic though because these robots can't reload themselves. Automated targeting for a single area is miles away from planning strategy, deploying battle groups, etc.

> This is a bit dramatic though because these robots can't reload themselves.

Neither can mines, and look at the decades of devastation those have caused. Now imagine a minefield where the mines get up and chase after you.

Re: AI at Google: our principles

#235
post #6

> AI applications we will not pursue [...] Technologies that cause or are likely to cause overall harm. [...] Weapons or other technologies This statement will have zero impact on subsequent sensational headlines or posters here claiming Google is making killbots.

Well, now you are talking about philosophical questions. - Is pursuing an AI that kills 10 bad guys but saves 20 good ones overall bad? - Is pursuing an AI that doesn't kill anyone but pushes us to watch ads and lose our life on youtube overall bad?

>-Is pursuing an AI that kills 10 bad guys but saves 20 good ones overall bad?

It's irrelevant. The swordsmith doesn't get to choose who gets cut down.

Does anyone think it's possible to build autonomous weapons that can't be turned upon arbitrarily chosen populations?

Re: AI at Google: our principles

#236
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unavoidable. Let's say a self driving car realizes that it is on an unavoidable collusion course, but changes in it's behavior (steering) will change where it collides. That's the trolley problem.

If I have understood it correctly in most self driving cars the actual AI/ML part is recognition of the scene/area, not deciding the action or outcome of such a situation. Either way this is one of the reasons I'm not wild about the crazy self-driving race.

An autonomous car must decide at every moment whether to brake, accelerate, swerve left, swerve right, or do nothing. Otherwise the car is not very autonomous. :)

If it senses an unavoidable collusion ahead, it will need to choose from possible reactions that each have different consequences for the various people and property. Someone has to program or train the car what to value when choosing its reaction. The car will be biased, implicitly or explicitly, by the programmer's values.

Re: AI at Google: our principles

#237
post #55

So, I'm all for giving someone the benefit of the doubt if they have a change of heart upon reconsidering an issue, but this coming after the fact rings a bit hollow to me. I think the only principle at play here is that it became a PR issue. That's fine, but let's be honest about it. Early emails between Google execs framed this project only in terms of revenue and potential PR backlash. As far as we're aware, there…

You hit the nail on the head.

Re: AI at Google: our principles

#238

> We want to be clear that while we are not developing AI for use in weapons... we will be developing AI for things that have weapons attached to them. We hope our lawyerly semantics are enough to fool you rubes for as long as it takes us to pocket that sweet military money.

reminds me of the joke

>"It should be noted that no ethically-trained software engineer would ever consent to write a NukeChicago procedure. Basic professional ethics would instead require him to write a NukeCity procedure, to which Chicago could be given as a parameter."

Re: AI at Google: our principles

#239
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I credit their sense of discipline in using the more accurate term. They know they can only stand to lose down the road if they over-hype notions if "artificial intelligence" now when it really is a misnomer. And they're probably betting that's what will happen to their competition who more enthusiastically use the phrase for marketing.

Probably more that they aren't as heavily invested in selling the idea that we are close to smart general AI. Compare it to Musk who constantly talks up the idea while the actual AI systems his company has deployed are killing people.

Musk's systems are more A than I.

Re: AI at Google: our principles

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funny thing about "holding people accountable" is that people rarely explain what it means, and I'm not even sure they know what it means? It's a stock phrase in politics that needs to be made more concrete to have any meaning.

And it requires that you be in a position of power - otherwise it's just heckling, which isn't likely to have any real impact. In this case it'd be having the ability to impose fines, or discipline corporate officers, etc.

I wouldn't think of bad press is "just heckling." A company's reputation can be worth billions in sales.

It's true that many boycotts fizzle out, though.

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