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AI at Google: our principles

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81–90 of 418 posts

Re: AI at Google: our principles

#81
post #55

So, I'm all for giving someone the benefit of the doubt if they have a change of heart upon reconsidering an issue, but this coming after the fact rings a bit hollow to me. I think the only principle at play here is that it became a PR issue. That's fine, but let's be honest about it. Early emails between Google execs framed this project only in terms of revenue and potential PR backlash. As far as we're aware, there…

I doubt that Google spelling out their moral stance is intended to convince you right away that they're all good now. It's a public standard that they're setting for themselves. If you think their actions don't match their words, you now have concrete terms and principles to critique and compare with. It's a benchmark to which employees and the public can hold them accountable.

>If you think their actions don't match their words, you now have concrete terms and principles to critique and compare with.

What I think is that they will go forward with any project that has potential for good return if they don't think it will blow up in their faces, and that opinion is based on their past behavior.

Re: AI at Google: our principles

#82

Also on this topic, from students who would interview at Google. It's important to hear how the upcoming generation, who would actually be doing this work, feel https://gizmodo.com/students-pledge-to-refuse-job-interviews... [Students Pledge to Refuse Job Interviews at Google in Protest of Pentagon Work]

From my observations in my college, Google is starting to become the new "Microsoft". It is still seen as well paying, and nerdy but it is no longer new and exciting. Facebook is taking over Google's spot as the well established but still exciting tech company, while Airbnb seems to be taking FB's spot as the new and exciting tech company.

I have rather the opposite impression of Facebook. They seem sort of tired and are moving onto the same level as Uber in terms of ethical conduct.

Re: AI at Google: our principles

#83
post #50
post #15

“Hey Google, give me three concrete examples of fair bias.”

Bias has a very broad meaning in AI work. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias-variance_tradeoff Most AI/ML/Statistics procedures use Occam's razor: prefer the simplest explanation of the data. That's a bias (toward simpler explanations), but not "unfair" to anyone.

Oh, so they mean the boring technical definition that nobody reading the page cares about?

We can trust google will try to build tools that are effective for googles buisness goals without it being proclaimed in a statement of principles.

Re: AI at Google: our principles

#84
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - Is pursuing an AI that kills 10 bad guys but saves 20 good ones overall bad? - Yes. If your philosophical development is to the point where there are clearly defined good guys and bad guys in your mind I suggest you read more.

His statement doesn't really depend on the definition of "good" and "bad", as the logic only requires that the good people be half as valuable as the bad people, not more valuable.

Mathematically true, ethically dubious.

Re: AI at Google: our principles

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a pity - as someone in stereo machine vision, metrology is something we really really need for a huge range of applications - that said, if its feeding an autonomous armed targeting system, I agree. We really need to decide as a species we want to continue being a species and realize that solving problems with each other by force is coming to an end. I'm not speaking from a pacifist viewpoint, just a practical…

Russia reportedly has armed robots capable of operating autonomously and they preemptively refused to honor any ban, and other nations are developing their own. As terrifying as the prospect is, it's already happening.

Yes. I can only refuse to play and hope the Russians et al come to their senses, the United Nations starts to work better, etc. If we go down that road, it will be the end of most of us, if not all of us. We really have no chance against a machine that's decided to shoot us. As a species we need to have zero tolerance for it - we won't be rendered extinct by snazzy terminators, we'll be killed by the 21st century version of a Victorian steam loom. Its truly a horrible problem, because the solution can't be creating autonomous systems to kill other autonomous systems. The rest of the distinction is just data. The only way to win is not to play.

Re: AI at Google: our principles

#86
Under "AI applications we will not pursue", its telling that the first rule basically allows them to override all the subsequent ones - "where we believe that the benefits substantially outweigh the risks". "We believe" gives them a lot of leeway.

Re: AI at Google: our principles

#87
post #12

I do not know, really... if not them, someone else will do however. Google has a competitive advantage (they can hire & pay well the smartest minds on Earth) and is letting it go? EDIT: going to be even more controversial but needs to be said that Google just can’t stay neutral here imho, they either work for autonomus killing machines or against them in order to preserve their market position and brand

If I don't build these gas chambers, somebody else will, so i might as well pocket the money. You don't see a problem with that position?

Ah, yes, extrapolate directly to the holocaust.

Re: AI at Google: our principles

#88
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, now you are talking about philosophical questions. - Is pursuing an AI that kills 10 bad guys but saves 20 good ones overall bad? - Is pursuing an AI that doesn't kill anyone but pushes us to watch ads and lose our life on youtube overall bad?

> - Is pursuing an AI that kills 10 bad guys but saves 20 good ones overall bad? - Yes. If your philosophical development is to the point where there are clearly defined good guys and bad guys in your mind I suggest you read more.

It is relatively easy to define good or bad though. Telling black from white isn't hard. The problem is all the shades in between (where the majority of the colours are).

Re: AI at Google: our principles

#89
This is pretty weak tea. It seems to completely justify working on anything, as long as the tiny part that Google engineers touch is software, and they aren't personally pulling triggers.

> 1. Technologies that cause or are likely to cause overall harm. Where there is a material risk of harm, we will proceed only where we believe that the benefits substantially outweigh the risks, and will incorporate appropriate safety constraints.

Is this "We have solved the trolley problem"?

Benefits to who? US Consumers? Shareholders? Someone in Afghanistan with the wrong IMEI who's making a phone-call?

Without specifying this, this statement completely fails as a restraint on behavior. For an extrajudicial assassination via drone, is 'the technology' the re-purposed consumer software to aid target selection, or the bomb? Presumably the latter in every case.

> 2. Weapons or other technologies whose principal purpose or implementation is to cause or directly facilitate injury to people.

This leaves the vast majority of military applications in scope. By this definition, Project Maven (the cause of resignations/protests) meets the criteria of not "directly facilitat[ing] injury to people". It selects who and what to cause injury too at lower cost and accuracy, to scale up the total number of causable injuries per dollar.

> 3. Technologies that gather or use information for surveillance violating internationally accepted norms.

Google set the norms for surveillance by being at the leading edge of it. It's pretty clear from Google's positioning that they consider data stored with them for monetization and distribution to Goverments completely fine. Governments do, too. And of course, "If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place."[0].

> 4. Technologies whose purpose contravenes widely accepted principles of international law and human rights.

It's difficult to see how this could be anything but a circular argument that whatever the US military thinks is appropriate, is accepted as appropriate, because the US military thinks it is.

The most widely accepted definitions of human rights are the UN's, and the least controversial of those is the Right to Life. There are legal limits to this right, but by definition, extrajudicial assassinations via drone strike are in contravention of it. Even if they're Googley extrajudicial assassinations.

[0]: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/12/google-ceo-eric-schmid...

Re: AI at Google: our principles

#90
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about you, but I know that I do not want an AI "solving" the trolley problem in real world situations.

It's unavoidable. Let's say a self driving car realizes that it is on an unavoidable collusion course, but changes in it's behavior (steering) will change where it collides. That's the trolley problem.

If I have understood it correctly in most self driving cars the actual AI/ML part is recognition of the scene/area, not deciding the action or outcome of such a situation.

Either way this is one of the reasons I'm not wild about the crazy self-driving race.

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