Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss • Hacker News Board

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#91

Post by taneq » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 1:34 PM UTC

_ak wrote: post #20

euroclydon wrote: post #5

Surely there’s a better drug than coffee for staying awake for a long time.

The Germans used metamphetamine during World War 2. They gave it nicknames Panzerschokolade ("tank chocolate"), Stuka-Tabletten ("Stuka tablets"), Herman-Göring-Pillen, or Flieger-Marzipan ("pilot's marzipan"). It was freely available under the brand name "Pervitin" until 1941. From then on, you needed a prescription in order to purchase it.

Frank Whittle used Benzedrine while working on the turbojet engine, so there's that.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#92

Post by eezurr » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 1:37 PM UTC

orasis wrote: post #69

L_226 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modafinil - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil

Modafinil scares me. I completely lose time and have little memory of the day - like that movie where the guy fast-forwards his life.

Nothing to be scared about. It will keep you awake but does not negate the affects from lack of sleep (which is what you're probably describing).

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#93

Post by SerLava » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 1:37 PM UTC

dtech wrote: post #89

yomly wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Caffeine == Caffeine But if a Coke is ~3mg caffeine 100ml and coffee is ~40mg per 100ml, drinking 13.3 "units" of cokes will not be equivalent to 1 "unit" of coffee. 1. Timing of the intake will affect the efficacy (x mg of caffeine over 2 hours vs. 20 minutes is very different to the body) 2. Controlling for time-dependent intake (the spherical human consumed both quantities instantly), concentration of the substanc…

> To use a possibly relatable issue: most people find consuming shots of vodka more efficacious than consuming the equivalent amount of beer by alcohol. 3 shots will probably get you more wasted than necking 3 beers But it won't, after drinking 3 beers after each other your BAC will go to the same level, just takes a little more time to get there. Subjectively, you start feeling drunk much more quickly because the ch…

I think he's saying that the beers take that much longer, and you're metabolizing the alcohol along the way.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#94

Post by acconrad » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 1:40 PM UTC

In case anyone found that study difficult to read, the optimal strategy was, over the course of 3 days, one 600mg dose after 12pm on days 2 and 3 of a 3 day string of sleep loss.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#95

Post by TheTrotters » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 1:42 PM UTC

yomly wrote: post #72

crazygringo wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "a form of caffeine that is particularly potent" I've heard this over and over, but as far as I can tell, caffeine = caffeine = caffeine. I'm not a chemist, but I can't find any mention of any different forms -- it's C8H10N4O2. [1] Is there any scientific evidence that alertness is related to anything but the quantity of caffeine, regardless of whether it's delivered as black tea, mate tea, coffee, pills, etc.? Ass…

Caffeine == Caffeine But if a Coke is ~3mg caffeine 100ml and coffee is ~40mg per 100ml, drinking 13.3 "units" of cokes will not be equivalent to 1 "unit" of coffee. 1. Timing of the intake will affect the efficacy (x mg of caffeine over 2 hours vs. 20 minutes is very different to the body) 2. Controlling for time-dependent intake (the spherical human consumed both quantities instantly), concentration of the substanc…

Thanks for that explanation. That matches my experience very well. I regularly feel wired and a little anxious after coffee but almost never after Coke (keeping the caffeine consumed constant).

Though my intuition tells me that chugging three beers would get me more drunk than drinking three shots. Sigh. The things I do for science.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#96

Post by fao_ » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 1:42 PM UTC

yomly wrote: post #72

crazygringo wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "a form of caffeine that is particularly potent" I've heard this over and over, but as far as I can tell, caffeine = caffeine = caffeine. I'm not a chemist, but I can't find any mention of any different forms -- it's C8H10N4O2. [1] Is there any scientific evidence that alertness is related to anything but the quantity of caffeine, regardless of whether it's delivered as black tea, mate tea, coffee, pills, etc.? Ass…

Caffeine == Caffeine But if a Coke is ~3mg caffeine 100ml and coffee is ~40mg per 100ml, drinking 13.3 "units" of cokes will not be equivalent to 1 "unit" of coffee. 1. Timing of the intake will affect the efficacy (x mg of caffeine over 2 hours vs. 20 minutes is very different to the body) 2. Controlling for time-dependent intake (the spherical human consumed both quantities instantly), concentration of the substanc…

> But if a Coke is ~3mg caffeine 100ml and coffee is ~40mg per 100ml, drinking 13.3 "units" of cokes will not be equivalent to 1 "unit" of coffee.

I know it was just an example, but after looking into this earlier this year, coke and pepsi have a much higher caffeine content at 10mg/100ml and 13mg/100ml (for coke and pepsi respectively)

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#97

Post by wufufufu » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 1:48 PM UTC

anoncoward111 wrote: post #55

Honestly guys, my opinion in this day and age is that pretty much any substance you put into your body (including water and air) can be toxic. Some are more vital than others. We have a pretty clear need for lots of air, and a fair amount of water. But it isn't as reasonable to think that our evolution intended or makes accomodations for caffeine intake. Ingest at your own risk, whatever the dose. My wallet and my br…

I agree with "But it isn't as reasonable to think that our evolution intended or makes accomodations for caffeine intake." However, caffeine has been tested over generations and doesn't really have any major consequences as far as I can tell. I do think that a lifestyle where caffeine makes you more effective is probably not optimally healthy, but since when does anyone care about that.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#98

Post by RankingMember » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 1:50 PM UTC

noxToken wrote: post #70

black6 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was Infantry I used a cocktail of caffeine and nicotine (usually nasal snuff, sometimes supplemented with dipping tobacco) to stay awake on extended missions. Since nicotine is a vasoconstrictor it inhibited night vision to some degree, but that was better than nodding off. Now that I'm a professional engineer and no longer in indentured servitude I stick to an 8 hour work day, get 7-8 hours of sleep a night,…

No nicotine for me, but I would make caffeine "dip" pouches out of the coffee packet and napkins that came with MREs. No one ever drank the coffee, so I always has multiple packets on hand. Pour the grounds into the napkin to keep it all together, then pop it in like a plug of dip. The taste was brutal, but it got the job done.

I love goofy makeshift stuff like this. How long would one "plug" last?

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#99

Post by themodelplumber » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 1:54 PM UTC

acconrad wrote: post #94

In case anyone found that study difficult to read, the optimal strategy was, over the course of 3 days, one 600mg dose after 12pm on days 2 and 3 of a 3 day string of sleep loss.

Thank you. I was thrown off because I couldn't believe I was looking at post-12pm. Those are pretty extreme circumstances.

In my own case I've been tracking caffeine use and some helpful strategies are:

- 30mg after a brief afternoon nap

- 50mg to 60mg after a long afternoon nap that resulted in grogginess

- 100mg after a terrible night's sleep and before a long meeting

- Extreme care if I have an exhaustion headache due to lack of sleep and overproduction; caffeine often triggers migraine here

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#100

Post by oxide » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 1:58 PM UTC

_ak wrote: post #39

Zezima wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read Blitzed by Norman Ohler?

No, why?

It's a pretty good read, mostly about the prevalence of Pervitin usage. I found it extremely worthwhile but drug discourse is my cup of tea- I tend to get a bit geeky about it.