Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss • Hacker News Board

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#81

Post by dao- » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 1:08 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #58

jillesvangurp wrote: post #19

Club mate is the drink of choice in the start up community in Berlin. I've made the mistake of drinking that in the evening a couple of times and regretted that at 4am by being wide awake and unproductive the next day. If you are not familiar, mate tea which this is based on contains a form of caffeine that is particularly potent. It's like drinking multiple espresso shots. Don't drink this if you have blood pressure…

> "a form of caffeine that is particularly potent" I've heard this over and over, but as far as I can tell, caffeine = caffeine = caffeine. I'm not a chemist, but I can't find any mention of any different forms -- it's C8H10N4O2. [1] Is there any scientific evidence that alertness is related to anything but the quantity of caffeine, regardless of whether it's delivered as black tea, mate tea, coffee, pills, etc.? Ass…

> Assuming that the caffeine makes it into the bloodstream at the same rate?

That's a big if. Others have listed a few factors to consider, another example is Guaraná powder which contains a lot of fiber, thereby slowing the caffeine intake.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#82

Post by _lbaq » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 1:14 PM UTC

skipants wrote: post #77

_lbaq wrote: post #23

Caffeine is also linked to panic attacks, anxiety and sleep loss (and loss of quality of sleep), I would recommend staying off caffeine all together, having tried both, I by far more like working in the calmness of not having caffeine circulating in my body. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine-induced_anxiety_disor...

Counter-point: I once quit coffee altogether, weening myself off with tea at first. After about 3 months of total caffeine "sobriety" I hated it. I found I enjoyed myself more and was more productive with some caffeine rather than none. It did help me cut back (I went from ~8 cups a day to ~2-4). I think the level I'm at now -- still ~2-4 cups -- is perfect. I find I'm productive and still sleep well. Note: 2-4 cups…

Nothing wrong with that, we are all different. I think its just important to talk about the drawbacks, especially in the software industry where coffee often is seen as some sort of fuel to do great things, while it may be the cause for all sorts of meltdowns.

If you run any type of startup/company, you are already in a very stressful position, no need to make it worse.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#83

Post by mrep » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 1:15 PM UTC

tzahola wrote: post #10

euroclydon wrote: post #5

Surely there’s a better drug than coffee for staying awake for a long time.

Amphetamine?

Yep, the classic one being adderall but you need a prescription for that unfortunately.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#84

Post by frfl » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 1:18 PM UTC

skipants wrote: post #77

_lbaq wrote: post #23

Caffeine is also linked to panic attacks, anxiety and sleep loss (and loss of quality of sleep), I would recommend staying off caffeine all together, having tried both, I by far more like working in the calmness of not having caffeine circulating in my body. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine-induced_anxiety_disor...

Counter-point: I once quit coffee altogether, weening myself off with tea at first. After about 3 months of total caffeine "sobriety" I hated it. I found I enjoyed myself more and was more productive with some caffeine rather than none. It did help me cut back (I went from ~8 cups a day to ~2-4). I think the level I'm at now -- still ~2-4 cups -- is perfect. I find I'm productive and still sleep well. Note: 2-4 cups…

8 cups?! You should drink that much water - but coffee..

2-4 still seems like a lot - this is coming from someone who doesn't drink at all anymore, but before 1, maybe 2. Now I only drink if I know I need the alertness. More effective for me considering the caffeine tolerance is gone and even a little has full effect.

Why did you hate it?

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#85

Post by gadders » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 1:20 PM UTC

andai wrote: post #24

gadders wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took some of that once for an overnight deployment at work. It's good stuff. No headaches like I would have got if I'd been drinking coffee all night.

I tried Modafinil for a few weeks with some friends. The alertness is quite incredible, although for me made me unable to fall asleep until dawn (even on half the lowest dose). The others have no trouble sleeping even with large doses, but experienced some bad headaches, or personality changes ("I just want to work all day now" -- this may not be bad depending on context). I quit the trial when I developed large purp…

Yeah, I can't speak to its use for long periods, but for a one off I just felt in the zone and able to concentrate, and then when straight to sleep when finished. I don't think I took a particularly high dose.

The second time I took it was for an athletic competition to give me focus. It worked well, but I don't think it lasted the whole day.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#86

Post by dec0dedab0de » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 1:21 PM UTC

Anecdotally, water and sugar directly affect my alertness while using caffeine. If I don't have enough water I get headaches and can't think straight. If my blood sugar is low due to not eating enough, or eating too much sugar and "crashing" then I might as well be asleep, even though I can't from the caffeine.

I may have missed it, but I don't see where they account for the diet of their test subjects.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#87

Post by kaybe » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 1:23 PM UTC

wongarsu wrote: post #49

andai wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is interesting about the thermometer! I noticed my tea always tastes like ass if I use boiling water, so now I add a bit of cold water after it boils. What is the optimum temperature?

It depends on the tee. Most green tea advises to use 70°C water. A good approximation of that is taking 2/3 boiling water and 1/3 tap water (if you have 10°C tap water that works out to exactly 70°C). Don't forget stirring before adding it to tea, to make sure it's well mixed. For optimal results obviously read the packaging of your tea and use a thermometer.

We have a kettle that can be set to temperatures between 60°C and 100°C. I cannot recommend this enough.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#88

Post by taneq » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 1:23 PM UTC

newfoundglory wrote: post #71

flipp3r wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, this is actually a thing! I thought it was just me. As someone who used to drink a LOT of cola-cola during their teens, caffeine really fucked me up good. I only noticed I was dependant (addicted) on caffeine after a friend pointed out I only felt good again on certain days after coming back from a client where there was no cola available. I took a little bottle with me to the client and felt "normal" that day.…

I regularly stop drinking caffeine for days at a time and have been unable to notice a difference. It's a shame because I was really hoping to find that my headaches had an easy solution like not drinking caffeine, but they don't appear to be correlated.

How many days at a time? I used to drink a lot of coffee on weekdays but none on weekends and didn't notice it making any difference. Stopped drinking coffee altogether and after a few days I was really noticing the difference, and it took about two weeks for the withdrawals to wear off.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#89

Post by dtech » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 1:28 PM UTC

yomly wrote: post #72

crazygringo wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "a form of caffeine that is particularly potent" I've heard this over and over, but as far as I can tell, caffeine = caffeine = caffeine. I'm not a chemist, but I can't find any mention of any different forms -- it's C8H10N4O2. [1] Is there any scientific evidence that alertness is related to anything but the quantity of caffeine, regardless of whether it's delivered as black tea, mate tea, coffee, pills, etc.? Ass…

Caffeine == Caffeine But if a Coke is ~3mg caffeine 100ml and coffee is ~40mg per 100ml, drinking 13.3 "units" of cokes will not be equivalent to 1 "unit" of coffee. 1. Timing of the intake will affect the efficacy (x mg of caffeine over 2 hours vs. 20 minutes is very different to the body) 2. Controlling for time-dependent intake (the spherical human consumed both quantities instantly), concentration of the substanc…

> To use a possibly relatable issue: most people find consuming shots of vodka more efficacious than consuming the equivalent amount of beer by alcohol. 3 shots will probably get you more wasted than necking 3 beers

But it won't, after drinking 3 beers after each other your BAC will go to the same level, just takes a little more time to get there.

Subjectively, you start feeling drunk much more quickly because the change is faster with Vodka, but your capabilities are as much impaired.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#90

Post by skipants » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 1:29 PM UTC

frfl wrote: post #84

skipants wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter-point: I once quit coffee altogether, weening myself off with tea at first. After about 3 months of total caffeine "sobriety" I hated it. I found I enjoyed myself more and was more productive with some caffeine rather than none. It did help me cut back (I went from ~8 cups a day to ~2-4). I think the level I'm at now -- still ~2-4 cups -- is perfect. I find I'm productive and still sleep well. Note: 2-4 cups…

8 cups?! You should drink that much water - but coffee.. 2-4 still seems like a lot - this is coming from someone who doesn't drink at all anymore, but before 1, maybe 2. Now I only drink if I know I need the alertness. More effective for me considering the caffeine tolerance is gone and even a little has full effect. Why did you hate it?

It's pretty easy to hit 4 cups. Large cups of coffee are 20 fl oz which are ~570ml. So 2 larges in one day, which I have from time to time, will get you there.

I can't really explain why I hated it with complete accuracy -- I think I just felt overall less energetic. And I felt this way when I was definitely over the effects of caffeine withdrawal.