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Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

developer.apple.com

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Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#451

Post by kllrnohj »

Const-me wrote: post #422
kllrnohj wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. If that would be the case, I would be stuck with GL3.0 regardless on the GPU. In reality, I’m only stuck with GL version Behavior depends on if the device supports 3.2+ compatibility mode which is optional. You're hitting the legacy path, that's well-defined ( https://www.khronos.org/registry/OpenGL/extensions/ARB/WGL_A... ). You need to use the method I mentioned to get real post-3.0 OpenGL. > Also, you can see…

> depends on if the device supports 3.2+ compatibility mode which is optional. For the systems I have in this house it’s not required, i.e. I’m getting the same OpenGL version that’s advertised by the GPU vendors. > You need to use the method I mentioned to get real post-3.0 OpenGL. Either I don’t, or the authors of that GLEW library https://www.opengl.org/sdk/libs/GLEW/ already did that. When running on modern GPUs,…

> Either I don’t, or the authors of that GLEW library https://www.opengl.org/sdk/libs/GLEW/ already did that. When running on modern GPUs, the code in my repository already uses real post-3.0 OpenGL just fine, including the shaders.

Go read the extension I linked, it explains the behavior you're seeing. Also go read the tutorial I linked, it's using GLEW and shows you how to create a context.

You have a bug if your intention is to get a post-3.0 OpenGL context. Whether or not you care is up to you. You may be perfectly happy being in the compatibility bucket. I don't know. But you're not in the explicit 3.1 or later path.

> Right, but 3.1 (Intel Sandy Bridge) is.

Sandy Bridge is a 7 year old CPU. Of course it's outdated...? And D3D 10.1 is from 2007, it's also hugely outdated. You're getting anything more modern out of the hardware with D3D than you are OpenGL here. I don't even know what the argument you're trying to make is at this point.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#452

Post by kllrnohj »

Const-me wrote: post #396
HelloNurse wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Both ATI and Nvidia drivers include recent OpenGL versions, so OpenGL support problems are limited to actually not capable hardware. In the old link you offer as example, Intel HD3000 and HD4000 are bad, with bad drivers that lie about OpenGL versions (hence the need to downgrade the client), and fortunately obsolete. Current Intel integrated graphics have improved. And VMware is a virtual machine, not hardware;…

> Intel HD3000 and HD4000 are bad, with bad drivers that lie about OpenGL versions Technically that’s probably true. However, if you drop support of Intel GPUs, your GL4+ software will no longer run on a huge count of older Windows laptops people are still using. For many kinds of software this is a bad tradeoff. That’s exactly why all modern browsers implement WebGL on top of Direct3D, and overwhelming majority of m…

That's not why they do that at all. They don't need anything recent from OpenGL or Direct3D, which is why they target DX9. And DX9 specifically is targetted because that also works on XP, which D3D10 doesn't.

Intel GPUs D3D drivers have historically been better than their OpenGL ones (which isn't saying much since their D3D drivers are also trash), but now we're talking driver quality of one player which has nothing to do with the API itself or opengl somehow being outdated on windows.

But ANGLE also targets desktop OpenGL (and vulkan), and as OpenGL 4.3 adoption increases I'd expect increasingly more browsers to use it for WebGL 2.0 since you don't need translation there at all. OpenGL 4.3 provides full compatibility with OpenGL ES 3.0.

You seem to be pretty confused on how OpenGL versions line up with the D3D ones, too. For reference OpenGL 3.1 is roughly equivalent to D3D 10.1. When you're complaining about only getting GL 3.1, you're also complaining about being stuck with D3D 10.1

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#453

Post by Phrodo_00 »

scarface74 wrote: post #443
Phrodo_00 wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android runs OpenGL ES and there are a lot more of those than iOS devices.

Are there more Android devices that actually have hardware that can actually play high end games decently? The average Android phone is a low end phone - with an average selling price of $225 for all Android phones how can they not be?

Yeah, and they still support OpenGL. The most popular iphone by a long margin is the 6, which is not exactly a graphics power house.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#454

Post by msbarnett »

wolfgke wrote: post #357
coldtea wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OpenGL is not a driver though, it's a graphics API

At least on Windows, the OpenGL implementation is part of the graphics driver. Why? Because by default Windows only has between rudimentary (at least up to Vista, I think; I am not sure about Windows 7 and 8.1) and no (Windows 10) OpenGL support - this is what the GPU vendors provides as part of his graphics driver.

> At least on Windows, the OpenGL implementation is part of the graphics driver.

It's distributed with the Graphics Driver, but most of it exists in a user space library, not in the driver proper.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#455

Post by scarface74 »

Phrodo_00 wrote: post #453
scarface74 wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there more Android devices that actually have hardware that can actually play high end games decently? The average Android phone is a low end phone - with an average selling price of $225 for all Android phones how can they not be?

Yeah, and they still support OpenGL. The most popular iphone by a long margin is the 6, which is not exactly a graphics power house.

Based on what statistics? Who is selling all of these high end Android phones? Even Samsung is selling mostly low end phones.

Also looking at Apple's sells every year since the 6 came out, I doubt very seriously that Apple has sold more 6 phones than 6S, 7, 8, and X phones.

Also if the 6 from 2015 is not a powerhouse, neither is Samsung S8 that was just introduced last year....

http://bgr.com/2017/05/23/iphone-6s-vs-galaxy-s8-speed-test-...

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#456

Post by Phrodo_00 »

scarface74 wrote: post #455
Phrodo_00 wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and they still support OpenGL. The most popular iphone by a long margin is the 6, which is not exactly a graphics power house.

Based on what statistics? Who is selling all of these high end Android phones? Even Samsung is selling mostly low end phones. Also looking at Apple's sells every year since the 6 came out, I doubt very seriously that Apple has sold more 6 phones than 6S, 7, 8, and X phones. Also if the 6 from 2015 is not a powerhouse, neither is Samsung S8 that was just introduced last year.... http://bgr.com/2017/05/23/iphone-6s-vs-…

OpenGL is part of the platform, they all support it. The stats page doesn't even include 'not supported' [1]

Being able to run anything slightly demanding is other thing, but you can't argue there's no support.

Also, the benchmark you linked is for application load, which is heavily influenced by storage speed and load method (android has to JIT compile sometimes) and has almost no impact from the graphics' performance other than the bus between CPU/memory and GPU

[1] https://developer.android.com/about/dashboards/#OpenGL

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#457

Post by scarface74 »

Phrodo_00 wrote: post #456
scarface74 wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on what statistics? Who is selling all of these high end Android phones? Even Samsung is selling mostly low end phones. Also looking at Apple's sells every year since the 6 came out, I doubt very seriously that Apple has sold more 6 phones than 6S, 7, 8, and X phones. Also if the 6 from 2015 is not a powerhouse, neither is Samsung S8 that was just introduced last year.... http://bgr.com/2017/05/23/iphone-6s-vs-…

OpenGL is part of the platform, they all support it. The stats page doesn't even include 'not supported' [1] Being able to run anything slightly demanding is other thing, but you can't argue there's no support. Also, the benchmark you linked is for application load, which is heavily influenced by storage speed and load method (android has to JIT compile sometimes) and has almost no impact from the graphics' performan…

Being able to run something suboptimally doesn't turn into sales. I'm sure that the owner of a $70 Blu R1 HD is not going to be spending money on high end games.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#458

Post by slavik81 »

pjmlp wrote: post #429
himom wrote: post #72

This is bad: a hobbyist will be faced with a huge burden to bring anything 3D cross-platform to their audience. In the past, it was possible to use Qt or a nasty GLU/GLUT wrapper to write portable code. Way back in 2006, in CS175, we implemented almost all of the core 1.5 pipeline in C++. Software OpenGL implementations may not be the fastest, but they’re more or less trivial (quaternions, trapezoid-based triangle en…

That hobbyist can still use Qt, because nowadays they support multiple graphical backends.

Qt supports multiple backends for its own rendering, but the hobbyists will still have to rewrite their rendering code to support that new backend. For a lot of my programs, that's about equivalent to rewriting in another language.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#459

Post by bingoboingo33 »

jonhendry18 wrote: post #125
bingoboingo33 wrote: post #41

Very much in line with Apple's way of doing things. God forbid they'd adopt some sort of open standard - even though they've hugely benefited from them.

"God forbid they'd adopt some sort of open standard " They did, when they adopted OpenGL and OpenCL. Years ago. Apparently they've decided that those have outlived their usefulness.

"They did, when they adopted OpenGL"

Yes, and this was so much against their DNA that it required the chutzpah of a Carmack to get the Apple's CEO to implement the decision.

Apple is and has always been a strict leech on open ecosystems.

They try to build closed proprietary stuff first to lock you to the platform, and when what they build is bested by OpenSource, embrace it and move on to the next opportunity.

They did the exact same thing with BSD: grab a beautiful piece of OpenSource tech, bolt on a metric ton of proprietary closed source tech on top of it, and call the whole thing open source to get love and applause from the OSS crowd.

Techies are essentially a gullible bunch.

Source: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17066846

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#460

Post by pjmlp »

slavik81 wrote: post #458
pjmlp wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That hobbyist can still use Qt, because nowadays they support multiple graphical backends.

Qt supports multiple backends for its own rendering, but the hobbyists will still have to rewrite their rendering code to support that new backend. For a lot of my programs, that's about equivalent to rewriting in another language.

Not when the hobbyists took the right approach to use the Qt 3D APIs, like the new scene graph API.

Also there is no harm in learning to write modular graphics engines with multiple backends, hobbits get to learn how professionals do it.

Finally, if it is just a hobby, then what hobbyists can do best to improve productivity is to use whatever their OS offers out of the box.

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