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Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

consumeraffairs.com

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Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#171

Post by ovao »

vinceguidry wrote: post #147
ovao wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't quite follow the logic that it doesn't matter. If the reason for someone not to buy a Tesla is because they do (A), why is the alternative to buy from another manufacturer that also does (A)?

I don't need a reason to not buy Tesla, I need a reason to buy Tesla. Belief in Musk's vision and the awesomeness of the car was that reason. Without both of those things being true, there's no reason to buy something that new and untested. It's like asking me to buy a Kickstarter car.

Maybe there's an element to this that I'm simply missing, but I don't believe Musk's vision has changed, and Tesla's internal policies regarding the release of crash data to consumers doesn't say anything about the 'awesomeness' of the car itself. Your ownership experience of the car will be affected by Tesla's policies, for sure, but regardless of what Tesla does or does not do with crash data, the car itself doesn't change. That might be nuanced a bit by what Tesla can do so easily with OTA updates, but just speaking generally.

I have no real dog in this fight though. Any reasons you have to choose one car over the other are your own, and it's not my intent to criticize one choice or the other. The reasoning here just seems slightly difficult to follow.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#172

Post by nerbert »

gonational wrote: post #157
jopsen wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GDPR doesn't sound so bad now, does it? :)

No. You know what sounds nice? Having the choice to not buy a Tesla. I don’t need Government™ to tell me what kind of contracts I can agree to.

Sure, very simple logic. That is of course until Comcast becomes the only internet provider in your area. I prefer my gov to have my back on those simple things just in case a particular situation that makes it easy for anyone to screw me over arises.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#173

Post by yumraj »

FireBeyond wrote: post #63
yumraj wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to go one step further and want the power to delete it, or be deleted, when I want. If I'm allowed to take the 5th to not incriminate myself and not reveal my memory (data in my head), I should be similarly allowed to delete my data when it is my data in my device. It'd be an interesting case to take to the Supreme Court.

I think they would view that as destruction of evidence. The next step in your scenario is "that security camera has data on me, I want it deleted".

Not really, especially if the cameras are 3rd party owned. My comment was explicitly about my own devices, with the argument being that they are an extension of my brain/memory as opposed to evidence in the traditional sense.

The link provided by wang_li applies and it seems such questions have come up in the past in front of courts, and honestly I won't be surprised if they come up again.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#174

Post by vinceguidry »

vinceguidry wrote: post #137
toomuchtodo wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they don't release the data, and other automakers don't release the data, it's industry standard behavior. The onus is on you, the consumer, to ask for regulation to fix the behavior if you want it fixed; not complain specifically about Tesla's behavior.

This sounds like the position of a diehard believer. Jesus never asked anyone to go to the cross with him. Putting the onus on me is like asking me to fix Rome so they don't have to execute him. No, it was the act of going to the cross that made it possible for Rome to not crucify Christians in the future. Or for you non-Christians, an act of symbolism through self-sacrifice. If Tesla wants to be Jesus, it's going to…

I'm going to put this another way. How much of Tesla's reputation was built on their approach to vehicle safety? That's great, I don't have to worry about my life when I get into a Tesla. But I'm in that weird position in the world where I can afford a Tesla, but not the burden of a legal case. I can look after myself, but I can't make the software not fuck up.

If Tesla can't shoulder that responsibility, I'm certainly not going to.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#175

Post by vinceguidry »

ovao wrote: post #171
vinceguidry wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't need a reason to not buy Tesla, I need a reason to buy Tesla. Belief in Musk's vision and the awesomeness of the car was that reason. Without both of those things being true, there's no reason to buy something that new and untested. It's like asking me to buy a Kickstarter car.

Maybe there's an element to this that I'm simply missing, but I don't believe Musk's vision has changed, and Tesla's internal policies regarding the release of crash data to consumers doesn't say anything about the 'awesomeness' of the car itself. Your ownership experience of the car will be affected by Tesla's policies, for sure, but regardless of what Tesla does or does not do with crash data, the car itself doesn'…

Musk's vision for how safe you can be when you buy their car extends only to "you can't die in one of my cars." It apparently does not extend to "you can't bankrupt yourself in one of my cars if we fuck up."

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#176

Post by gonational »

nerbert wrote: post #172
gonational wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. You know what sounds nice? Having the choice to not buy a Tesla. I don’t need Government™ to tell me what kind of contracts I can agree to.

Sure, very simple logic. That is of course until Comcast becomes the only internet provider in your area. I prefer my gov to have my back on those simple things just in case a particular situation that makes it easy for anyone to screw me over arises.

OK, let’s see if we can think of one solution to that problem… Oh! Enforce existing anti-trust laws!

This, plus the fact that the increasingly monopolistic reality of ISP in the United States is a direct result of overregulation.

We don’t need more laws. We need to enforce some of the most basic laws that have existed fore more than a century.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#177

Post by insulanus »

kofejnik wrote: post #93
jimmaswell wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no real justification for anyone having that right. The device manufacturer/website owner/etc does the work of creating the data, yet you think it's yours?

No, it's my device that creates the data, so it is mine. Otherwise, does the typewriter manufacturer own the stories you type?

I agree that you should own the data that was created because of your interaction with the device, but I do not agree that the reason is that you own the device.

Here's an example: You go to the library (or a privately owned web cafe), and write your stories there. It doesn't matter that you don't own the device. It's still your data.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#178

Post by tzs »

craftyguy wrote: post #132
arghwhat wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, how wonderful that the GDPR is now in place, making this as easy as issuing a subject access request.

Only if you are in the EU. Many Tesla drivers aren't.

If Tesla has a branch or subsidiary or something similar in the EU, then GDPR applies regardless of where the data is actually processed or where the data subject is.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#179

Post by mannykannot »

pwagland wrote: post #39

So this is something that has always kind of bugged me about Tesla. If you have an accident, they are more than happy to drop the crash data "proving" that you were at fault, look at the recent stories about running into a road barrier and the back of a firetruck for recent examples of this. And, of course, they don't ask you first if they can release it. However, if you want the data, you can't have it… you have to…

> If you have an accident, they are more than happy to drop the crash data "proving" that you were at fault...

Indeed. It is disturbing that Tesla is not in the slightest bit concerned by how obvious it is that it is lying about its motives, as that indicates that it does not see any downside from doing so.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#180

Post by rjmunro »

lucb1e wrote: post #87
adrianN wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I mean all data, not just PII. If a Nest measures the temperature in my house I want to own those data points.

It's often data about you, in which case it's linked to you in which case it falls under GDPR. This crash data is definitely about you, as general driving data would be. Your home's temperature won't be, so GDPR indeed won't apply there, but GDPR is a good first step. (I mean, EU already had it since 1995, but in USA it would be a good first step.) I agree that your proposal would be a good extension. Or at least tha…

If the nest information is tied to your address (which is clearly personal), doesn't that make it personal information?
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