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Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

developer.apple.com

331–340 of 466 posts

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple must truly hate gaming, or suffer from a serious case of Not Invented Here with their Metal stuff. As if any serious gaming studio would target Metal which doesn't run on Windows. In fact, they couldn't get their act together, keep with current versions, and as a result titles like Elite Dangerous were being shut down anyway. Reason: OpenGL stuck on an old version without support of compute shaders. https://for…

To be fair, most games today are built using Unity3D, Unreal Engine etc, which all support Metal already. Hardly anyone writes their own game engines these days, and if they do they probably have the resources to support Metal. Overall still a bummer though.

> Hardly anyone writes their own game engines these days

more people than ever do.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple must truly hate gaming, or suffer from a serious case of Not Invented Here with their Metal stuff. As if any serious gaming studio would target Metal which doesn't run on Windows. In fact, they couldn't get their act together, keep with current versions, and as a result titles like Elite Dangerous were being shut down anyway. Reason: OpenGL stuck on an old version without support of compute shaders. https://for…

Hypothesis: There are more machines in consumer hands which support Metal than DirectX. This may sound crazy, but remember there are billions of iOS devices out there in the world, and I don't think X boxes plus windows game machines count in the billions. Its true Apple hasn't won the hard core gamer market, but they are no longer the niche player that had to cater to windows users.

PC's use openGL and Directx All the android devices use opengl ES. Older ios devices use opengl

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#333
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So based on number of players, what is the most used engine today if not UE nor Unity? There's LoL, Dota 2 and Overwatch using their custom engines with huge numbers of players but... What else? CS:GO?

The Witcher 3 is using RedEngine, GTA V RAGE, the Battlefields and SW:Battlefront {1,2} are using Frostbite IIRC, the two new Tomb Raider on Horizon, Rainbow 6 Siege and the Assassin's creed are on Anvil, Overwatch & SC2 have their own engines too, same for League of Legends, CoD are on a heavily customized id Engine, Minecraft is custom, Bethesda have their own engines too for Skyrim & Fallout, Path of Exile cutom t…

That's a nice list, quite complete. Many console exclusives also use custom engines by the way, e.g. Decima for Horizon:ZD, KillZone and Death Stranding, Naughty Dog has their own engine (don't know the name), etc.

The OP's point was that the companies that make these engines can afford to invest in supporting an additional back-end API though. I think it's hard to argue that any of the companies that develop these engines would not be able to also add a Metal back-end. Many of them already work across a pretty wide range of back-ends anyway. Xbox One, PS4 and Switch all use completely different API's, for example. I think most of the work is not in adding an additional backend like Metal, but in tuning the back-end for some specific piece of hardware (NVidia vs. AMD vs. mobile GPU, etc).

Whether companies are actually willing to invest in a Metal back-end remains to be seen, but considering many of them license their engine for commerical use, I would be surprised if the major players will simply ignore Metal.

I tend to agree with Jonathan Blow's comments on Twitter, that the low-level graphics API should be just that: as low level as possible, small, focussed, and not actually intended (but still allowing!) to be used directly. Engines or higher-level API's can be built on top of that, with the option to dive down to the lowest level when needed (which will probably be a rare occasion).

DirectX will definitely not be this API because it is Windows specific. Likewise for Metal because it is Apple-specific. Blow appears to be of the opinion that Vulkan is also not moving in the right direction, because it is becoming too complex, and trying to be too many things for too many applications at the same time.

If true, in a sense, it's not that surprising Apple is doubling down on their own API. I think they should consider making the API open-source though, and develop something like MoltenVK (but the other way around) for Windows/Linux.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#334
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not so sure they’re worried about apps breaking. They’ve certainly stuck to the “no more 32bit iOS apps” thing.

Apple can get away with that on iOS, but they're a lot more conservative with macOS. To expand on your example, I maintain a legacy app that is stuck in 32-bit land because it relies on the QuickTime framework. QuickTime has been deprecated for seven years, and the transition to 64-bit has been in progress for over a decade, and yet my legacy app runs just fine even under the Mojave beta. There are multiple time bomb…

They said in the Platform State of the Union that Mojave will be the last macOS that runs 32bit apps, so QuickTime.framework and your app are running out of time!

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like this might be the incentive Unity needs to fix their Metal implementation.

I don't think it's much of an incentive. According to Valve's hardware surveys roughly 3% of Steam's market is MacOS. Those type of numbers are similar across different distribution platforms that a Unity game dev will target. It'll be hard to nudge it away from low priority with that share. https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Softw...

The other figure to look at is the amount of money spent. If it's similar to the hardware percentage then you're right, if on the other hand, macOS users spend more on games then a rethink is in order.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#336
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But molten is for Vulkan (ie: not OpenGL) - and not 100% of Vulkan, AFAIK.

Both exist: MoltenGL is for OpenGL ES https://moltengl.com/moltengl/

OpenGL ES is not OpenGL though.

It's a subset mostly for mobile.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#337
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Photoshop rely on OpenGL these days as well ? Yes, though with Adobe's relationship with Apple they probably got all the handholding and resources to do the port to Metal.

I'm not sure about that. Or maybe Adobe just doesn't care. My 2017 Macbook Pro has horseshit graphical bugs in both Illustrator and Photoshop. I'm exclusively doing all my graphics work on my Windows 10 machine now (even though windows and my Wacom tablet do not play nice together.)

I'm in the same boat, my so called Pro machine the USB-C 2017 MBP has had glitching out completely unusable rendering on the latest version of Illustrator since October 2017. Adobe blame Apple, presumably Apple blame Adobe because neither of them are fixing it.

As if my deteriorating keys on this machine were not bad enough. This wasn't a good WWDC for me. My PC is working great despite being an obscure setup with mismatched GPUs, can't say I understand why the graphic designer workhorse machine MBP is unusable with Illustrator and that is working just fine..

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#339
I wonder at what point developers will leave. I don't think they will. Changes from Apple might seem to hurt, but people adapt. The changes are not big enough, nor damaging enough to those who have invested themselves in Apple to switch. Normal users won't see much difference.

If you have Apple desktop, a laptop, a phone, connected accounts, apps and associated data, maybe a watch or a TV you are fully within the Apple ecosystem. You cannot leave without it costing you major hassle and stress. This might cause surface inconvenience but it's not going to be enough to push anyone out from that ecosystem. Apple has their users where it wants them, and the users are happy.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#340
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Nobody even really sells desktop PCs anymore except custom gaming rigs and low-power kiosk boxes." I believe you should embrace the novelty concept called 'work' sometime. Then you may see some 'niche' application of PCs. Mobile devices can, yes, be sold in bigger numbers, may produce higher profit, many trivial applications like browsing for news and sharing our newest and greatest experiences by tweets and photos…

I think the GP’s point was laptop sales are outgroing desktop sales at a high pace for a while now. And that in an overall stagnating market.

More that both laptops and desktops are dinosaurs compared to mobile so Apple isn’t pouring R&D into them. And it’s a smart move.
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