Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL • Hacker News Board

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#321

Post by hrktb » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 9:06 AM UTC

zoltaan wrote: post #284

exelius wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone is coasting in the desktop / laptop market. Refresh cycles are like 5-10 years on PCs now, and it’s not clear tablets even have a refresh cycle. You can’t get growth on PC hardware anymore, not even if you’re Apple. So it goes into maintenance mode. Nobody even really sells desktop PCs anymore except custom gaming rigs and low-power kiosk boxes. Apple is all about mobile phones, the Apple Watch and air pods…

"Nobody even really sells desktop PCs anymore except custom gaming rigs and low-power kiosk boxes." I believe you should embrace the novelty concept called 'work' sometime. Then you may see some 'niche' application of PCs. Mobile devices can, yes, be sold in bigger numbers, may produce higher profit, many trivial applications like browsing for news and sharing our newest and greatest experiences by tweets and photos…

I think the GP’s point was laptop sales are outgroing desktop sales at a high pace for a while now. And that in an overall stagnating market.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#322

Post by shahar2k » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 9:11 AM UTC

sgift wrote: post #304

ctrl-j wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure about that. Or maybe Adobe just doesn't care. My 2017 Macbook Pro has horseshit graphical bugs in both Illustrator and Photoshop. I'm exclusively doing all my graphics work on my Windows 10 machine now (even though windows and my Wacom tablet do not play nice together.)

> even though windows and my Wacom tablet do not play nice together. They don't? Whats the matter? (mine works great, but I'm not a heavy user so curious if it depends on the model or I just didn't run into it so far)

microsoft changed the pen behavior in one of the creators' updates and now the pen buttons behave strangely (randomly dont work in certain applications) as well as the pen being registered as a finger in legacy applications for a while... making windows 7 the only really viable way to use wacom for a professional (speaking as one)

let alone the inability to reconfigure things like n-trig pens to have hover right click/middle click functionality, it's been INCREDIBLY frustrating without any communication from microsoft.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#323

Post by ocharles » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 9:12 AM UTC

bayindirh wrote: post #320

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to be the Devil's advocate here, but just wanted to share an observation. Apple always removes stuff which looks untimely or just plain stupid (headphone jacks, optical drives, USB/Firewire ports, optical in & out, rosetta, APIs, etc). Always the same outrage has happened, but things normalize then. People, companies adapt, hell does not freeze over, company doesn't go bankrupt. I feel that…

> Always the same outrage has happened, but things normalize then. People, companies adapt, hell does not freeze over, company doesn't go bankrupt.

But that doesn't mean we took the best path. There is always an alternative future if x hadn't happened at all. If x hadn't happened, we might be in a better place, rather than accepting it and doing the best we can.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#324

Post by lloeki » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 9:15 AM UTC

ethelward wrote: post #307

piva00 wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So based on number of players, what is the most used engine today if not UE nor Unity? There's LoL, Dota 2 and Overwatch using their custom engines with huge numbers of players but... What else? CS:GO?

The Witcher 3 is using RedEngine, GTA V RAGE, the Battlefields and SW:Battlefront {1,2} are using Frostbite IIRC, the two new Tomb Raider on Horizon, Rainbow 6 Siege and the Assassin's creed are on Anvil, Overwatch & SC2 have their own engines too, same for League of Legends, CoD are on a heavily customized id Engine, Minecraft is custom, Bethesda have their own engines too for Skyrim & Fallout, Path of Exile cutom t…

Also, the Forza (custom) and Far Cry (CryEngine/DuniaEngine) series. Titanfall uses a modified Source engine IIRC.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#325

Post by psyc » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 9:25 AM UTC

As a long-time professional game engine programmer, it is hard for me to see consternation over things like this, and avoid judging it as mainly ignorance. The amount of code in an engine that needs to touch the graphics API is tiny. A handful of methods for device init, filling buffers, uploading shaders, setting state, and saying "draw!" All of the graphics API code can easily fit in one medium-sized source file. As a proportion of the whole engine, it's very small. As a proportion of the whole game or app, it's negligible. It's also boilerplate. There are only so many ways to copy a stream of structured data into a buffer.

Legacy software, blah, blah, blah. No legacy software runs forever, and least of all on Apple platforms. Who cares.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#326

Post by Hamuko » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 9:26 AM UTC

waynecochran wrote: post #221

Firecracker wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NVIDIA has mac drivers for their whole consumer line. For example https://images.nvidia.com/mac/pkg/387/WebDriver-387.10.10.10...

Yes. But tell me a Mac past 2015 that you can even use an nVidia card in.

Any Mac that can use an eGPU.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#327

Post by pjmlp » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 9:26 AM UTC

kbwt wrote: post #290

happosai wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main reason to buy a new phone these days surely is "the old one broke". Being with us all the time. The planned obsolence - unreplaceable battery, glued screen, glassback etc mean phones break all the time. PCs stand still, even laptops tend be mostly stationary. No wonder my work laptop is now 6 years old and I feel no urge to request upgrade.

> The planned obsolence - unreplaceable battery, glued screen, glassback etc mean phones break all the time. Don't forget planned insecurity two years after release through unpatched software vulnerabilities.

With shops still selling un-upgradable Android devices with 5.1 on them, I seriously doubt non-technical users actually care about it.

https://tinyurl.com/yakmsz6b (sorry, in German)

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#328

Post by mratsim » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 9:27 AM UTC

So Adobe, Blender, Maxthon (Cinema4D), Maya, CaptureOne, DaVinci Resolve and 99% of the film, image, photo industry have to rewrite all their OpenCL kernels.

Also currently Metal and Accelerate are completely unsuitable replacement to OpenCL for Deep Learning ... Not that deep learning on OpenCL was a thing yet but I was adding support to it in my own framework.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#329

Post by pjmlp » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 9:30 AM UTC

drb91 wrote: post #117

tzahola wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you could just use one of the existing engines like Unity.

Pretty sure Unity is more heavyweight than a few hundred kilobytes of a library. It also doesn't come installed on my machine.

Depending on the project type, the final release package can be just a few hundred KB, like they do when targeting WebAssembly.

OpenGL also does not come installed on my machine.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#330

Post by pjmlp » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 9:34 AM UTC

mtgx wrote: post #6

shurcooL wrote: post #2

I would be a lot more okay with this if Apple supported Vulkan, the more portable comparable API, rather than just the macOS/iOS-only Metal. I also wonder what means for WebGL and its future. Right now, WebGL works in browsers on macOS, Linux, Windows, iOS, Android, which is incredible. There is no equivalent. Sure, Apple has started working on WebGPU, but that’s not yet ready nor is it guaranteed to gain Linux, Wind…

WebGPU would gain traction if it was based on Vulkan. But it's not. However, Mozilla's Obsidian API is: https://github.com/KhronosGroup/WebGLNext-Proposals/tree/mas... Apple has so little to gain over Vulkan by developing its own API but so much to lose by not adopting Vulkan (gaming companies may actually prefer developing games on the cross-platform Vulkan to target macOS/iOS devices, too, at the same time, instead…

They don't have anything to loose regarding not adopting Vulkan, because all game engines that matter to professional game studios already added Metal support.

Same applies to Photoshop and other relevant 2D and video editing professional tooling.

Professional game studios always favored hardware specific APIs that allows them to extract all the juice up to the last drop.

For example, OpenGL ES 1.0 + Cg on the PS3 was an adoption failure, with everyone adopting the PS3 specific APIs.