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Apple introduces macOS Mojave

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Re: Apple introduces macOS Mojave

#461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For most people emojis (and animojis) have opened a whole new way to communicate with each other Wow that is an extremely generous characterization. At best they're just prettier versions of :) and :( and I don't see how they allow people to convey ideas they couldn't do just as well via text.

I assume you don't know any people born in the last 15 years or so. Emoji communication (using just emojis) is quite common, often several in a row.

I feel like I'm in the Twilight zone (and no, I don't hang out with a lot of 12 year olds, but I do in fact know that kids like to pepper near everything they write with dumb icons.)

The debate is not "are emojis widely used". Yes, of course they are. The question is "opened a whole new way to communicate with each other", which is what I responded to.

I say, no, they haven't. I can convey the same emotions with ascii. I can convey the same emotions with written text. If you want to prove me wrong then fine, but don't re-frame the discussion.

Re: Apple introduces macOS Mojave

#462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a better argument, but it still doesn't really explain what qualities make emoji a better medium of expression, or why we need 2000 of them.

The fact that they’re wildly popular should provide some indication that the qualities exist. Communication is rife with ambiguities, emotion, shortcuts, and mistakes. And between people who share friendship or more personal relationships, those “flaws” are often features, not bugs. The concept of emoji, I feel, embraces those flaws. (And personally speaking on the subject of emoji vs common text shorthand, if I neve…

> The fact that they’re wildly popular should provide some indication that the qualities exist.

Really?

Pet rocks were wildly popular. Unhealthy foods are wildly popular. Cocaine is wildly popular (well maybe that's a stretch).

I think there's a correlation problem here. However, I think you're missing the point again; _what can I convey via an emoji that I cannot convey in ascii_? I have yet to see a single example, and that's what started the entire debate.

Re: Apple introduces macOS Mojave

#463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you haven't seen how emojis are used in the wild to enhance communication, it's probably not for you.

You didn't read. I said that you can convey any of these equally well in ascii. Yes, it's handy to be able to plug an :) at the end of a sentence which may otherwise sound rude/overly direct. That doesn't mean I need 1000 icons, and _that's what we're talking about_.

I read the whole thing.

The emojis serve a purpose. Text doesn't serve that purpose. I don't know how to describe the niche they fill with text. They're not a stand-in for emoticons.

You don't get it. It's okay. Not everything is for you.

Re: Apple introduces macOS Mojave

#464
post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So let me get this straight: emoji is both highly contextual and simultaneously universal? I find that difficult to believe. On the other hand, given enough time and global interaction in that medium, it could develop a stable enough meaning across a large enough conceptual space to have a situation no worse than exists between any "standard" language and its various dialects. That'd be interesting, but I'm not holdi…

> So let me get this straight: emoji is both highly contextual and simultaneously universal? Well, not always universal. Some are generally well understood. They're easy to learn (you might wanna also look into where to start if you're interested in learning many languages; I understood its best to start with an Asian language such as Japanese/Korean/Chinese), and on top of that even allow to learn languages easily (…

> If I say:

> That's fun ;) :)

> That has a different meaning than:

> That is fun :)

> or

> That is fun ;) > > Different context, yet a wink or smile is universal.

Really? Because I can't see any real difference between any of those examples. Does the wink mean you're being sarcastic? Or that you're coming on to me? What purpose does the smiley serve? you already said it was fun, one could presume that would leave you in a positive emotional state.

> the kappa emoji [1] which originates from Twitch can be used on an English stream

I hate those stupid things so much, probably because I have no context for understanding their meaning and, since its already an english stream, you could just use words! And if you're not speaking the same language as the rest of the stream, you can't express anything meaningful enough to be worth saying anyway.

Re: Apple introduces macOS Mojave

#465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did they do that beyond `:)` or `xD` or `-.-` does?

Well, for starters, you don't have to turn your head 90º to resolve some, but not all of them as an image, as you do with your provided examples. They're also much higher-resolution so it's easier to pull meaning from an unfamiliar one.

> Well, for starters, you don't have to turn your head 90º to resolve some, but not all of them as an image

Well, no one actually does, so I'm glad we got out ahead of that problem.

> They're also much higher-resolution so it's easier to pull meaning from an unfamiliar one.

except you don't really need that many. There are a few common emotions that people use... and then there are winky T-Rex emoji's that are completely unnecessary.

Re: Apple introduces macOS Mojave

#466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did they do that beyond `:)` or `xD` or `-.-` does?

I feel like you and others are being purposefully obtuse, to some degree. Can you seriously not distinguish between the tiny selection and low res quality of text faces, and the wide variety of highly specific and detailed set of reactions now available to us? There's only so much you can do with text before you have to be extremely creative (a level of effort excessive for quick casual conversations) or rely on the…

>Can you seriously not distinguish between the tiny selection and low res quality of text faces, and the wide variety of highly specific and detailed set of reactions now available to us? There's only so much you can do with text before you have to be extremely creative (a level of effort excessive for quick casual conversations) or rely on the other party being familiar with your specific vocabulary of text-face

Then give us a single example! So many replies _and not a single example of where words or ascii fail to impart what only an emoji can_. You can say "they're obviously better" until you're blue in the face, but it's all hot air until you prove it.

Re: Apple introduces macOS Mojave

#467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But localStorage.setItem() throwing an error definitely is in the spec, so if someone isn't handling Safari's localStorage behaviour in Private Browsing Mode (that is, throwing exceptions) then they aren't handling the parts of the spec.

The web isn't built on specs, it's built on conventions. Safari breaks the convention.

the convention is that localStorage throws exceptions. it does in every browser. if a site breaks because it doesn't do error handling, then that's the site's problem.

Re: Apple introduces macOS Mojave

#468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't read. I said that you can convey any of these equally well in ascii. Yes, it's handy to be able to plug an :) at the end of a sentence which may otherwise sound rude/overly direct. That doesn't mean I need 1000 icons, and _that's what we're talking about_.

I read the whole thing. The emojis serve a purpose. Text doesn't serve that purpose. I don't know how to describe the niche they fill with text. They're not a stand-in for emoticons. You don't get it. It's okay. Not everything is for you.

> I don't know how to describe the niche they fill with text.

Consider the possibility that this is because there isn't one.

Re: Apple introduces macOS Mojave

#469
post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So let me get this straight: emoji is both highly contextual and simultaneously universal? Well, not always universal. Some are generally well understood. They're easy to learn (you might wanna also look into where to start if you're interested in learning many languages; I understood its best to start with an Asian language such as Japanese/Korean/Chinese), and on top of that even allow to learn languages easily (…

> If I say: > That's fun ;) :) > That has a different meaning than: > That is fun :) > or > That is fun ;) > > Different context, yet a wink or smile is universal. Really? Because I can't see any real difference between any of those examples. Does the wink mean you're being sarcastic? Or that you're coming on to me? What purpose does the smiley serve? you already said it was fun, one could presume that would leave yo…

> Really? Because I can't see any real difference between any of those examples. Does the wink mean you're being sarcastic? Or that you're coming on to me? What purpose does the smiley serve? you already said it was fun, one could presume that would leave you in a positive emotional state.

That'd depend on the rest of the text. It could mean I am making a joke ("not serious" / "just kidding"). It could mean I'm sarcastic. It could mean that I'm trying to hit on you. I think that sums it up (though I'm open for different explanations).

Thing is, back in the days, even in native languages between native speakers (but more so with one or more non-native) sarcasm and jokes weren't always easy to detect. The wink smiley specifically filled that niche! If you don't know about the story behind it, you might find it interesting to look it up.

As for the difference between these, "That is fun :)" denotes no sarcasm, but warmth. Possibly still humor, but its a genuine statement. "That is fun ;)" was covered earlier above and "That is fun ;) :)" is a mixed bag which could go either way (possibly clever to "talk your way out of the meaning" e.g. when trying to flirt but its not well received, or to create some -albeit simple- mysticism around your flirt). That's without knowing the context. The context still matters and is, ultimately, decisive for the meaning.

I have autism, btw, so although I find this fascinating it is rather difficult for me to understand. It took me serious effort to learn the meaning of the different emoticons/emoji (as far as one can know them, since there's so many in unicode these days).

> I hate those stupid things so much, probably because I have no context for understanding their meaning and, since its already an english stream, you could just use words! And if you're not speaking the same language as the rest of the stream, you can't express anything meaningful enough to be worth saying anyway.

(I don't like it either but that's because it is overused in these circles, and it reminds me of my age ie. that I'm not youth anymore.)

The ability to understand a language isn't binary. (See e.g. the example of the wink where language is not being understood!)

Another example coming from my own is I understand some Spanish, some French, some and some German, but I do not want to learn any French or Portuguese, and my German is better than my Spanish but I'm very curious to learn more Spanish. My English is pretty good, as is my Dutch, but I'm only interested in learning more English and Spanish; Dutch not so much. YMMV obviously.

Re: Apple introduces macOS Mojave

#470
post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At best they're just prettier versions of :) and :( Do you really think this? I don't really 'get' emojis but I think you're woefully underestimating their impact on communication and language. The emoji library on a normal iPhone is enormous.

>Do you really think this? ...yes? >you're woefully underestimating their impact on communication and language. The emoji library on a normal iPhone is enormous What does one have to do with the other? Yes, there are a lot of dumb icons to chose from. How does that directly lead to "[having a] large impact on communication and language"? If that's true, do you think it's a _positive_ impact?

Have you ever encountered difficulty conveying or understanding conversational tone over the internet? No? You are lying or lack self-awareness. Voice and body language are important for disambiguating sentences with more than one possible meaning or implication. Emojis approximate the role of voice tone and body language in digital text-based communication.
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