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NSA posters from the 50s and 60s [pdf]

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Re: NSA posters from the 50s and 60s [pdf]

#101

Post by Vi0 »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #87
_8j50 wrote: post #19

You know,the scary thing about the US intelligence community isn't that they all are "after out liberties" or "againsy our privacy". My experience and encounters related to the IC scare me because they genuinely believe they're the good guys who're on the right side of justice. The real scary part is that they are scared of what will happen if they don't do something (where something entails disregarding laws and the…

>You know,the scary thing about the US intelligence community isn't that they all are "after out liberties" or "againsy our privacy". My experience and encounters related to the IC scare me because they genuinely believe they're the good guys who're on the right side of justice. The real scary part is that they are scared of what will happen if they don't do something (where something entails disregarding laws and th…

Why would you need a government, even a democratic one, if you had no intention of restricting any individual's freedom?

Re: NSA posters from the 50s and 60s [pdf]

#103

Post by dsfyu404ed »

Vi0 wrote: post #101
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You know,the scary thing about the US intelligence community isn't that they all are "after out liberties" or "againsy our privacy". My experience and encounters related to the IC scare me because they genuinely believe they're the good guys who're on the right side of justice. The real scary part is that they are scared of what will happen if they don't do something (where something entails disregarding laws and th…

Why would you need a government, even a democratic one, if you had no intention of restricting any individual's freedom?

Individuals are generally trustworthy. Groups generally act like sociopaths.

There's a difference between restricting the freedom of all individuals and restricting the freedom of some individuals.

Eventually you have to draw some lines (e.g. not letting people murder each other).

Re: NSA posters from the 50s and 60s [pdf]

#104

Post by hprotagonist »

lainga wrote: post #90
dempseye wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a common strand within protestantism, imported from northern Europe into the United States. It is quite at odds with the catholic view of things and with what Jesus is reported to have said in the bible.

The Calvinist work ethic is less Jesus and more Old Testament: you were born into sin, you live under the Curse of God, and you'd better work as hard as you can every day and shun vice or you'll go to hell.

worse. “... even though your fate is preordained!”

Re: NSA posters from the 50s and 60s [pdf]

#105

Post by Vi0 »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #103
Vi0 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you need a government, even a democratic one, if you had no intention of restricting any individual's freedom?

Individuals are generally trustworthy. Groups generally act like sociopaths. There's a difference between restricting the freedom of all individuals and restricting the freedom of some individuals. Eventually you have to draw some lines (e.g. not letting people murder each other).

But don't laws that apply to all individuals inevitably apply only to some subset? Most people have no desire to murder others and so are basically unaffected by a law forbidding it.

Re: NSA posters from the 50s and 60s [pdf]

#106

Post by wahern »

prawn wrote: post #58
hprotagonist wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ivan is an atheist, you see. This way we all know we aren’t soviet. I’m reasonably convinced that explains a fair bit of the “we are very publicly religions”part of the 1950s.

I've always wondered how the political right in the West ended up with such seemingly odd bedfellows as capitalism and religion. e.g., the Jesus of stories seems like a potentially Socialist sort? A friend of mine thought that it was likely that the pairing was a reaction to the communism and atheism of the USSR.

Selection bias? Cultures (including religions) that reject capitalist values are disadvantaged in terms of global industry. One might expect dominate industrial powers to either outright reject community-oriented religious systems or for such religious systems to internalize capitalist values.

Re: NSA posters from the 50s and 60s [pdf]

#107

Post by wahern »

lainga wrote: post #90
dempseye wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a common strand within protestantism, imported from northern Europe into the United States. It is quite at odds with the catholic view of things and with what Jesus is reported to have said in the bible.

The Calvinist work ethic is less Jesus and more Old Testament: you were born into sin, you live under the Curse of God, and you'd better work as hard as you can every day and shun vice or you'll go to hell.

That's no different than orthodox Christian theology. Like with a handful of other unique religions, orthodox Christianity fundamentally put great value into and encouraged work in the temporal world. In Roman Catholic theology science--knowing the physical world through exploration and labor--is at least in principle an avenue of holy revelation similar to that of the bible and the Church.

I think the difference is in the shedding of the ancient modes of worship. Follow Protestant theologies to their logical end and the only way to manifest piety is through industrious labor. It's not just that work is prayer; that concept was already present in orthodox Christianity. Work becomes the religion, rather than being one aspect of a more complex system of worship.

Re: NSA posters from the 50s and 60s [pdf]

#108

Post by wahern »

jimmy1 wrote: post #83

Might be tangibly related -- and honestly I have no dog in this fight -- but it seems that a certain sect of our political parties really are trying to eliminate or counter the narrative that America was founded on Judeo-Christian values must have complete blinders on when it comes to history of this country, and just flipping through some posters from the 50's and 60s made it very apparent that it was the prevailing…

This "fight" over what separation of Church and State means has been ongoing since before the very beginning. Jefferson's Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Statute_for_Religious...) was actually quite controversial, even long after it was (barely) adopted by the Virginia legislature.

The fight has never been about the political and religious history; it's been about the meaning and implication of that history. Does the fact that Christianity played such an important historical role in European and American political history mean that it should therefore be given special legal status? For example, is it therefore okay for the government to display the 10 Commandments but refuse to display Buddhists' 5 Precepts? Where do you draw the line between historical homage and preferential treatment? Can such a line even be drawn? The anecdotes and contours of the debate have changed over the centuries but not the fundamental conflicts and tensions.

Re: NSA posters from the 50s and 60s [pdf]

#109

Post by hprotagonist »

wahern wrote: post #107
lainga wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Calvinist work ethic is less Jesus and more Old Testament: you were born into sin, you live under the Curse of God, and you'd better work as hard as you can every day and shun vice or you'll go to hell.

That's no different than orthodox Christian theology. Like with a handful of other unique religions, orthodox Christianity fundamentally put great value into and encouraged work in the temporal world. In Roman Catholic theology science --knowing the physical world through exploration and labor--is at least in principle an avenue of holy revelation similar to that of the bible and the Church. I think the difference is…

could you clarify what you mean by orthodox in this case? This is like, the one place where it really does make a difference. (Roman Catholicism, which is what luther forked, may be little-o orthodox but it is explicitly not big-O Orthodox)

Re: NSA posters from the 50s and 60s [pdf]

#110

Post by lainga »

wahern wrote: post #107
lainga wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Calvinist work ethic is less Jesus and more Old Testament: you were born into sin, you live under the Curse of God, and you'd better work as hard as you can every day and shun vice or you'll go to hell.

That's no different than orthodox Christian theology. Like with a handful of other unique religions, orthodox Christianity fundamentally put great value into and encouraged work in the temporal world. In Roman Catholic theology science --knowing the physical world through exploration and labor--is at least in principle an avenue of holy revelation similar to that of the bible and the Church. I think the difference is…

Well, as far as I was taught growing up Roman Catholic, you were supposed to be faithful and good, and honour God every day, and over time your soul would be saved through faith and good deeds. In old-school Calvinism, original sin is upon you until He takes it away, like the bomb in Jackie Chan's mouth in Rush Hour 2, and he'll just as quickly give it back if you break the faith.

EDIT: not the mark of Cain, duh...

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