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Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

nytimes.com

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Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#91

Post by josefresco »

evincarofautumn wrote: post #76
hublott wrote: post #42

Response from FB: "Why We Disagree with the NYT" https://newsroom.fb.com/news/2018/06/why-we-disagree-with-th...

The NYT article is definitely overblown. It’s popular to hate on Facebook about privacy, and yeah, they’ve made mistakes in the past, but that’s largely because they’re just engineers trying their best to do the right thing. IMO they need more non-engineer types to inform them what “the right thing” actually is, when it doesn’t align with the typical attitude of “Oh, there’s a technical solution to this problem!” > t…

Also from the article:

Some device partners can retrieve Facebook users’ relationship status, religion, political leaning and upcoming events, among other data.

Are those public?

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#92

Post by dhimes »

icebraining wrote: post #68
product50 wrote: post #56

Now read this and do make sure you type the takeaways like you did for the NYTimes article above: https://newsroom.fb.com/news/2018/06/why-we-disagree-with-th...

Doesn't actually deny any of the accusations, except maybe for the "access to friends' data not being shared" (for which the NYT should be criticized for being too vague - it's not clear how and why they "believed" it wasn't shared). I like the part "all these partnerships were built on a common interest" - tautologies always sound good. As for the only actual defense (the data agreements), it was already in the NYT…

And, Contrary to claims by the New York Times, friends’ information, like photos, was only accessible on devices when people made a decision to share their information with those friends. We are not aware of any abuse by these companies.

Parsing: friends’ information, like photos,

I have a friend named Tammy. Tammy has photos.

was only accessible on devices

Someone/thing can access these photos

when people made a decision to share their information with those friends

I decided to share information with Tammy. I now have access to her photos. I open some silly fb app. That app now has access to my friend Tammy's photos. According to this, Tammy may not even know that those photos have been compromised. She may have a son who is gay, but not out yet, and Tammy (being the understanding parent) is sharing with people she trusts. Now, unbeknownst to her, everything is out in the wild.

This is the problem.

We are not aware of any abuse by these companies.

Were you looking? Did you care? Do you now?

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#93

Post by ailideex »

Iv wrote: post #14
jumelles wrote: post #6

Here we go again... it feel like there's no way to break out of this cycle where companies routinely go unpunished for bad behavior. Facebook, Equifax, Wells Fargo...

The problem is that "bad behavior" is a concept in flux. Facebook never hid what their business model was: sell your personal data to third parties. Only a few privacy activists were concerned. Others reactions went from "meh" to "it's actually smart!" (Remember when Obama's campaign was praised for its innovative approach profiling voters?). It took Cambridge Analytica for people to realize that they did not want th…

> The problem is that "bad behavior" is a concept in flux. Facebook never hid what their business model was: sell your personal data to third parties.

So not to interrupt the outrage mob here ... but facebook did not sell data to these companies. And actually I'm not aware of any case where people are outraged where facebook sold peoples data, including the Kogan case.

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#94

Post by cdubzzz »

evincarofautumn wrote: post #76
hublott wrote: post #42

Response from FB: "Why We Disagree with the NYT" https://newsroom.fb.com/news/2018/06/why-we-disagree-with-th...

The NYT article is definitely overblown. It’s popular to hate on Facebook about privacy, and yeah, they’ve made mistakes in the past, but that’s largely because they’re just engineers trying their best to do the right thing. IMO they need more non-engineer types to inform them what “the right thing” actually is, when it doesn’t align with the typical attitude of “Oh, there’s a technical solution to this problem!” > t…

I generally agree with you that this piece is a bit sensationalistic but...

> [...] they’re just engineers trying their best to do the right thing.

What makes you say that? Beyond potential abuses of data by third parties (or whatever), I would expect that most FB employees are trying their best to get paid. Whether or not all or any single one of them cares about “the right thing” is mostly unknown to outsiders. I have always assumed, based on FB’s overall business model, that there is a general disregard for any particular interpretation of “the right thing” at least when it comes to the privacy of the platform’s users.

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#95

Post by goalieca »

josefresco wrote: post #90

Facebook's old policy: Move fast and break things. Facebook's new policy: Move fast and deny everything. I'm only half-joking as I was surprised to see a Facebook rebuttal so quickly after an article like this. It seems a new strategy is in place, to not let these article fester. The problem is their response is devoid of actual content, or even actual rebuttals to the main points of the NYT article. Mainly that FB d…

> I'm only half-joking as I was surprised to see a Facebook rebuttal so quickly after an article like this

>Market Cap: 561.740B https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/FB:US

Not surprised at all. Their business model depends on it on people uploading all of their personal information, thoughts, and feelings into the machine for analytical processing. If that trust/relationship dies, facebook dies with it.

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#96

Post by makomk »

sigmar wrote: post #17

>The company continued to build new private APIs for device makers through 2014, spreading user data through tens of millions of mobile devices, game consoles, televisions and other systems outside Facebook’s direct control. So Facebook says "we don't sell data," but they are giving manufacturers access to data in exchange for being integrated/pre-installed on the device. How is that not "selling" data? Just because…

They're not giving manufacturers access to data in exchange for being integrated/pre-installed on the device; they're giving those manufacturers' apps access to data because they need that access in order to be able to present that data to the users who are accessing Facebook through those apps. It's not a quid pro quo, it's something that's fundamentally necessary for the apps in question to actually allow users to interact with Facebook through them.

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#97

Post by chiefalchemist »

Having read (been warned) "Chaos Monkeys" and "Dragnet Nation" this comes as no surprise.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/06/29/business/dealbook/revi...

https://www.npr.org/books/titles/281981849/dragnet-nation-a-...

Editorial: It's startling to me how outfits as reputable as NYT can time and again parrot a narative (e.g., FB is better than sliced bread), and then after the fact report on something that was right under their nose all along.

Given the book review (link) above, it's as if they don't read their own publication. If I have to connect the dots myself then I'm going to stop reading - which I essentially did, many years ago.

That said, SV has become the ultimate cult / religion. All those followers and zero heretics (i.e., whistleblowers). The irony that so many of the faithful champion the likes of Snowden et al is as funny as it is frightening.

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#98

Post by bradleyjg »

josefresco wrote: post #90

Facebook's old policy: Move fast and break things. Facebook's new policy: Move fast and deny everything. I'm only half-joking as I was surprised to see a Facebook rebuttal so quickly after an article like this. It seems a new strategy is in place, to not let these article fester. The problem is their response is devoid of actual content, or even actual rebuttals to the main points of the NYT article. Mainly that FB d…

I'm only half-joking as I was surprised to see a Facebook rebuttal so quickly after an article like this.

Reputable journalists always seek comments when they write in depth about a person or company. There’s always at least some forewarning.

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#99

Post by HelloNurse »

headsoup wrote: post #48
DSingularity wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GDPR, the tool to prevent the disruption of Facebook from ever being economically viable! Yay. Let’s celebrate.

The assumption there being that Facebook continues to be economically viable...

Facebook disruption will be Facebook "spontaneously" ceasing operations, without replacement.

I bet on a quick shutdown, possibly with extradition shenanigans, offshore funds and other drama, after a criminal investigation or a whistleblower shines a light on potential liabilities.

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#100

Post by makomk »

dhimes wrote: post #92
icebraining wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't actually deny any of the accusations, except maybe for the "access to friends' data not being shared" (for which the NYT should be criticized for being too vague - it's not clear how and why they "believed" it wasn't shared). I like the part "all these partnerships were built on a common interest" - tautologies always sound good. As for the only actual defense (the data agreements), it was already in the NYT…

And, Contrary to claims by the New York Times, friends’ information, like photos, was only accessible on devices when people made a decision to share their information with those friends. We are not aware of any abuse by these companies. Parsing: friends’ information, like photos, I have a friend named Tammy. Tammy has photos. was only accessible on devices Someone/thing can access these photos when people made a dec…

So basically, your argument is that it's a dangerous attack on users' privacy for Facebook to allow users to view it through any app but their own, no matter how strict their contracts with the app developers, even if those developers are big companies like Microsoft with a lot to lose if they get caught doing something malicious? That it's an attack on gay rights for the Facebook walled garden to not be maximally strict and absolute in its grip on what software people can use to interact with their friends on it?

Because that's what we're talking about here: apps that allow users to access their Facebook accounts and interact with their friends through them. Not shady Zynga games or information-mining quizzes, but alternatives to the official Facebook app that are only allowed to "provide versions of the Facebook experience" and are created by major device manufacturers.

I'm curious how Facebook's continued willingness to allow web access to people's private information fits into all this too. After all, the user's web browser has access to all this dangerous personal information about their friends, it can certainly do all kinds of malicious things with it, and Facebook doesn't even have any kind of contractual relationship with the browser developers preventing this. Given how many shady browser extensions are out there this is certainly being abused right now. Should Facebook take down their web version too in the name of protecting gay children?

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