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Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

theintercept.com

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Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#511

Post by archerface »

bambax wrote: post #509
archerface wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The side you're on is pretty important So, generally and from what I understand about US drone operations, these strikes target people like ISIS and other Islamic extremists. Following this, in a general sense, the sides are the US and terrorist religious extremists. The way you frame your point makes it sound like your on one side or the other. If that is the case, I would much rather be on the side of the US than…

It's unlikely I can convince you of anything regarding your two questions, but... if everything is so clear-cut and right and wrong are easy to tell appart, why is this an issue with Google (trying to hide it) and Google employees (protesting / quitting)?

> if everything is so clear-cut and right and wrong are easy to tell appart

I would never in my life assert that these issues, ethically, are simple.

I think that Google trying to hide this information is more connected to their image and culture more so than anything else.

From an outsider looking in, it seems that Google has this hyper progressive culture that thousands of people live and work in. So the company helping the US military get better at killing people with flying robots clashes with the ideals expressed by the company and are a part of its culture.

Is your question relating to my comments on 'sides'? Your original comment is what brought up sides. When you think about this issues, what do you mean by sides?

You just say "the side your on is pretty important". You use WWII to try to bolster this claim, but that doesn't mean anything to me in the context. I trying to understand what you mean in your comment.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#512

Post by 3131s »

djajshgsjja wrote: post #507
acct1771 wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they're within range of our borders, and people, sure.

Why does the border matter? If somebody across the border is getting ready to fire a cruise middle at me, should I just let it happen?

The point is that very few of these people had any intention, let alone capability, to commit a terrorist act against the US. Most of them were civilians or young men who joined their countries' militaries to defend against an invading force.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#513

Post by [deleted] »

bambax wrote: post #509
archerface wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The side you're on is pretty important So, generally and from what I understand about US drone operations, these strikes target people like ISIS and other Islamic extremists. Following this, in a general sense, the sides are the US and terrorist religious extremists. The way you frame your point makes it sound like your on one side or the other. If that is the case, I would much rather be on the side of the US than…

It's unlikely I can convince you of anything regarding your two questions, but... if everything is so clear-cut and right and wrong are easy to tell appart, why is this an issue with Google (trying to hide it) and Google employees (protesting / quitting)?

[deleted]

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#514

Post by gr__or »

ghein wrote: post #455
gr__or wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From outside the US (which is where I'm from) the US military doesn't look very benevolent. Do I want my data to be used to help causes I believe to be harmful to human life? No! It's that simple.

Then shouldn't you be morally opposed to using the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency network? Or the Global Positioning System where the primary purpose is to position nuclear and conventional weapons globally on Chinese and Russian forces? Not to mention abhorring the use of semi-conductors that were created solely for the purposes of the US Department of Defense? Be consistent!

So I have to cheer for coups and the desctruction of the Middle East because I appreciate the Internet & GPS?

That's not consistent, that's lacking nuance. On the spectrum of things the US military does, I see the drone program closer to the former than the latter.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#515

Post by ivm »

fsloth wrote: post #239
paganel wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is "evil" about working with the military or developing weapons? In case your question is serious: There are still some of us who believe in peace as an end-goal for us humans, as a race. See Kant's "Perpetual Peace: A Philosophical Sketch" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_Peace:_A_Philosophic... ) for a more detailed view on the subject. "Working with the military or developing weapons" are two activ…

"There are still some of us who believe in peace as an end-goal for us humans" I'm sorry, but I think in our current world historical evidence is stacked against you. Humans are a political species. The ultimate form of political power within a specified region is to have the most capability for the violence within the region. Hence, if a nation state would secede all capability for violence it would effectively yiel…

> I think in our current world historical evidence is stacked against you.

There's a lot of factors stacked against us. It doesn't matter, we will continue moving towards this goal.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#516

Post by dahdum »

Bartweiss wrote: post #433
dahdum wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a hypothesis without much backing, history shows an interventionist hyper power reduces conflict. We've seen Pax Romana, Pax Britannica, Pax Mongolica, and now Pax Americana. There could be shining utopia without military conflict in the future, but personally I'd rather not take the risk during my lifetime. Many equally matched opponents has historically resulted in brutal warfare.

Leaving aside Pax Americana to look at more settled history: none of those events were peaceful in global terms. There's a reason the general term is pax imeperia . The Pax Romana was 200 years of relative quiet after 700 years of effectively constant war, and followed by another 200 years of war. The thing most historians stress is just how far from peaceful it was. In practice, Roman-held lands were at peace becaus…

Thank you for this response. I don't argue that the way to that peace hasn't been historical bloody, but the pandemics can't be blamed on the empires. Those were inevitable as population and trade grew, a byproduct of urbanization.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#517

Post by Cookiesaurusbex »

Veelox wrote: post #470
3131s wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is fact, not a feeling. How many of the roughly 1 million people dead in the last 15 years of the "War of Terror" ever directly attacked the US or US citizens?

1 million dead in 15 years seems a lot higher than any other number I have seen. Do you have a citation for this?

The 1 million number I've seen floating around for a while was just for the Iraq war, not even including the other wars/conflicts we are involved in. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iraq-deaths-survey/iraq-c...

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#518

Post by barrkel »

Lennie wrote: post #372
barrkel wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe the only reason American civilians like us have been able to enjoy peace is because we dropped a ton of bombs to blast tiny countries out of the sky This is completely ludicrous. There is no military threat to the US beyond nukes. Nuclear weapons have obsoleted wars between great powers. Tiny countries are zero threat to the USA. They cannot invade; they can do almost nothing. At best, they can kill a few…

Almost completely true, bioweapons would actually be something certain tiny countries are really good at. But many have actually signed treaties not to use them (I believe even to not develop certain kinds). Actually the more advanced our technologies get the bigger the threads.

Any country found to have used bioweapons against the US would be in a similar position to one that used nuclear weapons.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#519

Post by glitchdout »

archerface wrote: post #477
gameswithgo wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think if we were currently fighting the 3rd Reich people might be more for it. But currently the USA has a massive military for no purpose, which is often used to conduct evil, and thus some people do not want to aid it.

> ... which is often used to conduct evil, ... I am curious. In your eyes, what evil has the US military done?

https://collateralmurder.wikileaks.org/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisone...

Is this enough?...

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#520

Post by bb88 »

mrep wrote: post #303
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this, in itself, a huge problem? Shouldn't public service be a low margin project? Could the fact that military contracts are so needlessly "lucrative" (despite the government having a literal monopoly on who you can sell advanced weaponry to) be why such a huge margin of your taxes go to defense?

Eh, government contracts come with all sorts of red tape that make that "lucrative" contract not so good once all the hidden costs are considered.

Yeah, there is red tape, but government contractors make this a core part of their business, so the relative risk is low.

For a new company, the risk is relatively high, because there's a lot of up front work that has to be done (auditing, compliance, security, etc). But once that is ironed out, larger contracts become easier and easier.

And then the only real risk is on a "firm fixed price" style of contract where the contractor assumes all the risk of product delivery. But many other are "time and materials" where the risk is shifted onto the government. If you fail to deliver a product, you're not on the hook because the government was paying for "time and materials" not the end product itself.

So yes, google may actually lose money on a $9MM contract, but probably not on the next $100MM contract.

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